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Author Topic: Ladegaard Air Bearing Arm  (Read 5632 times)
wesley
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« on: February 19, 2009, 01:29:47 AM »

 ;D  i thought i'd transfer some of this info from an linear tracker thread from the previous LH site.  i didn't want it to get lost since it might be of use for someone...

the following is based on a ladegaard built for a garrard 401.  if you use a conventional lenco, you will have to make your plinth 3/4" lower at the manifold area.  if you're going to use a ptp2 or ptp3, then with raised platter, no problem.

 ;D  here's a little insight on my experiences with them.

if i were to buy an air bearing arm, i would go with david's route.  best value for money would be the terminator or the mg-1.  which theory would i prefer?  probably the former, because i would want the least air cushion, that means i like the knife bearing for vertical movement and air bearing only for lateral movement.  the air arms lose some impact in bass because of the air cushion, that is why it is imperative that the arm has good mass.  both vertical and lateral directions using air cushion creates double trouble.  i also do not want too much agility on the vertical plane, so i like knife edge.  2 great arms, sme and saec are legendary knife edge designs, so there must be some foundation to the theory. 

like david said, once you've gone to an air bearing arm, there's no going back to a pivot.  there's one design out there that has a headshell that turns, which might alleviate tracking angle error, but then you are weighing in another factor of an added pivot, which might be more trouble in the long run.

no matter what linear tracker you go with, the magic only comes out with tweaking.  you can also improve on the designs by diy'ing tweaks.  if you do that, you might as well build one from scratch and be able to learn more and improve on your own design.  even if you screw it up, you can rebuild it without having to worry about losing value on the second hand market.  afterall, we are all diy'ers here, the smart bunch wink

there is something that is overlooked out there by almost all the tonearm and turntables designers.  everyone tries to create something that performs great mechanically, and tries to extract that perfect signal from the grooves, but that's not ALL of what it's all about.  last night i went to a great musical performance here, the chicago symphony orchestra conducted by bernard haitink.  the performance of strauss' ein heldenleben, op.40 was extraordinary.  the power of a full orchestra, it's expansive width, concert hall filling sound, DIMENSION, impact, etc. was overwhelming and put me in a trance.  the sound of the solo violinist was superb, something that is almost impossible to create on a hi-fi system.  so when someone designs something, are the really going to live performances to really hear what a performance really sounds like?  and do audiophiles tune and adjust their hi-fi's to emulate what is really a musical performance?

what is missing is DIMENSION and the use of natural cellular materials to bring back real true to life sound.  most tonearms and turntables do not address the musical aspects of what should be used to create a natural and true to life TONE.  with the incorporation of wood and tuning factors, refinement can be achieved to bring a rewarding sound into your hi-fi system.  the use of only metal, acrylic, plastic, rubber is not going to bring you musical pleasure.

a very simple example.  some of you use uwe's cartridge bodies.  i've already heard someone recently mentioning about a more 3-d effect using them.  YES, that is correct, you get more dimension with real wood.  when someone plays a strad in an ordinary room, you are not going to hear the difference in the sound when compared to a well made moder violin.  however if you were to compare them in a concert hall, you will hear the difference in the more complex overtones that the strad creates.  that's REFINEMENT wink .  this in an example, if you have an arm made of all metal vs. an arm made of metal/wood, which one is going to sound better?

my advice, build an arm from scratch, incorporate the proper wood into it, tweak it with your ears slowly and you will have an arm that is something that will be truly musical and rewarding, SOMETHING YOU CANNOT BUY COMMERCIALLY.

here is a pix of an old ladegaard that i still use on a garrard 401, however i am now working on 3 other arms that are made out of ebony for better true to life sound.  follow my thread on the ONE STEP for more info in the projects section.

 wink 3 arms i made a long time ago.  i used golf iron shafts (with sensicore) and clone sme headshells.  total cost per pc. was around usd20 ea.  these are heavy arms and should be used with low compliance cartridges like the denon 103r.




here's the link to the headshells...

http://www.turntablebasics.com/hardware.html

so ten bucks for a headshell ain't bad eh?

i would try to find a putter shaft, they are usually around usd5 on sale at golfsmith (google it), shaft tip is 0.370"  if you don't want to see a step, get a rifle shaft (stepless).  actually one time i went to the states and bought 6 rifle shafts on sale at usd4 ea.  then you just glue the heashell (remove the 4 pins connector)on using shafting expoxy (or some sort of 2 compound mix expoxy).

i used something inside the shaft called sensicore (google it) to reduce vibration/resonance, you can diy something as well.

i would exit the wire at the pivot point (drill a 1/16"? hole) or before.  if your wire is stiff, exit at the end will cause trouble, tail wagging dog effect... = trouble.

the pivot u-bolts are stainless, as well as the counterweight.  i found these things at a stainless shop here....

if you're not using a low compliance cart, then i suggest a lighter material for the wand.  maybe carbon fiber or graphite, but no experience using them..definitely not musical materials.  metal is not either, however rigid and then you add wood to become musical.

the ladegaard is an amazing design.  simple and very effective.  (there is a problem with air hiss, and i am re-designing things a bit to alleviate it.  my advice is to go with a shorter wand, that means getting the manifold as close to the platter as possible.  on my pix it is too long and the total arm weight a bit heavy.  my manifold should be a bit closer, which i will rework on the 401, but just no time since i have the ONE STEP project)  i would go with a golf shaft wand first, then implement a wood one in the future once you get the hang of the diy design.  the trick when you progress is to find ways to remove resonance and then introduce friendly and musical resonances using wood.

as for total costs, taking into consideration inflation, it probably is more expensive now to make, maybe usd25-30.... ;D wink  i remember a long time ago i spent usd500 on an extra vpi wand, boy, was that a rip-off!

here's the shaft link.   the diameter is 0.370".  this dia. match well with the headshell end dia.  not perfect, but pretty close and the expoxy fills it in.

http://www.golfsmith.com/products/2178/Snake_Eyes/Stepless_Steel_Putter_Shaft

the reason why i made 3 is because when i imake things, i make a few.  since you're going to set up all the tooling, you might as well take advantage of all the effort.   i use each arm for a different cartridge, denon 103, 103r, 102...

Quote from: gninnam board=tonearm thread=205 post=1974 time=1234098080
Well, just popped into the 2 shops mentioned.
Can get a pump, extra bits to make it work for around £20.
Looked at the golf shop and can get a graphite club for less than £10.

Just got to look at the angle iron and see what's next. ;D


a pump that has an output of 30l/min. works well.  i even stepped mine down from 220v to 110v for quieter operation.

just for your info, my manifold at present (for ebony arm) uses closer spaced holes.  this might have been a booboo since it now requires more air.  the spacing as stated in the original ladegaard website text should suffice, which is the spacing on my 401's golf shaft arm.

regarding my headshell to shaft fit, a graphite shaft will not work since the inner dia. will be smaller than steel since the material is thicker.  so the headshell end cannot slip into the graphite shaft.  i am sure the 0.370" (which is outer dia.) steel shaft works with the headshell i noted since the steel is thin walled.  if you go with graphite, then i suggest you to find another alternative headshell.  if you are set on using the sme clone headshell, then get it, then look for a steel 0.370" shaft.

i like a thicker angle for manifold and a thinner one for the slider.  if you can wait, let me post my pix with dimensions for your review.

golf shaft ladegaard wand.

this one was made using a iron (0.370"parrallel shaft, stepped type, true temper brand) iron shaft.  putter shaft with same dia. is fine too.  don't use a tapered shaft since i have never tried.

note this is a very early wand and the wire exited at rear.  i prefer exit before pivot.  at pivot point o.k. as well.




 :-[oops, i was wrong.  after reviewing pix, i see that the wire does exit before the pivot.

here's the pivot.  note that i just use a large japanese cutter blade.  i do not have the saw to cut the blade, so i just snap it off on vise with visegrip.  i now have one that was machined by a machinist.  i grease the blade as you can see.  also prevents rust.


the manifold.  when you have it cut, it is very important that the cut is the same length on both pcs.  so when the guy sets up the saw, it's best to cut an extra set just in case something goes wrong with your fine workmanship.  so i had 4 pcs. of ea. item cut and 2 sliders.  if everything goes well and you do not need any extra pcs., then you can make an extra manifold.

i've tried different thickness of angles before and settled on the 4mm, which is thick and strong.  the  slider has to be light but rigid, so 2.5mm worked well.



the wires in the pix are very old (a first generation try with teflon tubing) and were too stiff and restricted the slider movement.  they have since been changed to vic's (of terminator fame) tonearm wire, which is fine copper litz, fine and supple, perfect.

that's it, good luck and improvise when needed.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:13:55 AM by wesley » Logged

regards,

wesley

Dial out the room and you'll enjoy your music more.
rfgumby
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 01:36:49 AM »

Thanks Wesley.  This should prompt more discussion again.
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Scott

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wesley
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 02:16:19 AM »

Thanks Wesley.  This should prompt more discussion again.

you're welcome scott.

for me it's an ongoing project to improve on the design.  i'll try to add some new thoughts to it soon.
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regards,

wesley

Dial out the room and you'll enjoy your music more.
analogfuture
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 01:01:41 PM »

Posted a new photo of my Ladegaard arm yesterday, under "Lenco based projects" ("L75 project -and my soapstone 401"), as the weekend experiment was to try ball bearings for the vertical pivot, as well as adapting the arm assembly to accept the Denon DL-103R. Nothing further to report yet...

Thomas
 
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wesley
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 03:12:16 AM »

 grin

not much time to play lately, however i did have a chance to work on my new wand this past weekend.

aft - 1st. generation.  i changed the screws to setscrews for a nicer look and a minor decrease in weight.

fore - 2nd. generation already  wink, with smaller pivot for a significant decrease in weight.  changed to a u.s. type cutter blade, which is shorter.  installed cannon plug for quick arm change, but decided not to use it since it might degrade sound.  wand will be cut to length soon.  this wand is supposed to go on my new L78/PTP2 project, but just no time to start on it.

cannon type plug might be used in the near future on a new turntable for testing wands.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 03:14:56 AM by wesley » Logged

regards,

wesley

Dial out the room and you'll enjoy your music more.
willbewill
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 08:56:24 AM »

They really look the business Wesley smiley
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malcolm ("You can't shine if you don't burn" - Kevin Ayers)

colorIf what I'm hearing is colouration, then bring on the whole rainbow color
jloveys
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 08:42:28 PM »

Air bearing tonearms ? I admit I have physical problems with them. For me it denaturates the metaphysical meaning of the turntable, some look more like sewing machines than record players. The way of cueing is something I love with a conventional tonearm, but this is strictly personal. It is part of the sensual pleasure of the vinyl affair . The pivot arm is engraved in my genetic code, no way to remove it.
For the sound, I doubt it rivals the best pivot designs. Here is a quote from Atmasphere on the Gon today:

"So far air bearings in arms and tables have proven to be a failed concept- any play that exists between the platter surface and the cartridge cantilever will be a coloration (often a lack of bass, but can manifest in many other ways as well). This is why the more air pressure you put into an air bearing, the better the system sounds. The problem is you can never have enough air pressure and why an air bearing might be 'good' but never state of the art."
Atmasphere 

I hate air bearings.
Malcolm hates jazz.

My opinion here, no offense guys.  protest

Best,

Jean.
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JEAN ...
willbewill
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 09:11:47 PM »


I hate air bearings.
Malcolm hates jazz.



Malcolm (and David) love air bearings grin


Here's mine (on Blue Neon):
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malcolm ("You can't shine if you don't burn" - Kevin Ayers)

colorIf what I'm hearing is colouration, then bring on the whole rainbow color
willbewill
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 09:18:58 PM »

Here is a quote from Atmasphere on the Gon today:

"So far air bearings in arms and tables have proven to be a failed concept- any play that exists between the platter surface and the cartridge cantilever will be a coloration (often a lack of bass, but can manifest in many other ways as well). This is why the more air pressure you put into an air bearing, the better the system sounds. The problem is you can never have enough air pressure and why an air bearing might be 'good' but never state of the art."
Atmasphere 


LOL!

He certainly ain't tried one of Vic's arms:

http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm
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malcolm ("You can't shine if you don't burn" - Kevin Ayers)

colorIf what I'm hearing is colouration, then bring on the whole rainbow color
jloveys
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 09:22:22 PM »

Poor Blue Neon, you don't deserve such a treatment.  cry
Your daddy will give you a nice hat if you are a good boy.  Kiss

Maybe start a topic " Linear for Jean" !  angel

Best,

Jean.

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JEAN ...
jloveys
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 11:11:51 PM »

Sorry for my offensive attacks, my friends, I am suffering from that heat wave ...

No offense I hope.

Jean. BangHead
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JEAN ...
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 11:20:02 PM »

Sorry for my offensive attacks, my friends, I am suffering from that heat wave ...

No offense I hope.

Jean. BangHead

None taken Jean - a good bit of 'light hearted banter' (as woody would say) is always welcome smiley
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malcolm ("You can't shine if you don't burn" - Kevin Ayers)

colorIf what I'm hearing is colouration, then bring on the whole rainbow color
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 12:52:48 AM »

Malcolm (and David) love air bearings grin

and Simon
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Lenco L75 on slate (Terminator Tonearm, Uwe Ebony Denon 103) - Marantz CD63 KI Sig - Monica DAC - Decware ZBox - Supratek Chenin - Decware SE84C - Mil Spec Silver coated copper teflon wire - Decware HDT speakers
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 02:01:54 AM »

Air bearing tonearms ? I admit I have physical problems with them. For me it denaturates the metaphysical meaning of the turntable, some look more like sewing machines than record players. The way of cueing is something I love with a conventional tonearm, but this is strictly personal. It is part of the sensual pleasure of the vinyl affair . The pivot arm is engraved in my genetic code, no way to remove it.
For the sound, I doubt it rivals the best pivot designs. Here is a quote from Atmasphere on the Gon today:

"So far air bearings in arms and tables have proven to be a failed concept- any play that exists between the platter surface and the cartridge cantilever will be a coloration (often a lack of bass, but can manifest in many other ways as well). This is why the more air pressure you put into an air bearing, the better the system sounds. The problem is you can never have enough air pressure and why an air bearing might be 'good' but never state of the art."
Atmasphere 

I hate air bearings.
Malcolm hates jazz.

My opinion here, no offense guys.  protest

Best,

Jean.

Oh dear Oh dear !! That is such a poor quotation from Atmasphere and old school thoughts IMHO, it is almost like someone quoting that idler wheel turntables have rumble and sound coloured and are not detailed and refine like very best belt drives  angry

to put things into perspective and complicate matters even more, Vic's Terminator 3 which just released has probably the best mid to lower bass I have heard anywhere ! the tweaking of an air bearing arm (or the character) can change dramatically with air pressure, surge tanks, head shells, wands etc etc ..... you better talk to Wesley on wands ! Air pressure wise, Vic has the lowest air pressure performing air bearing I have heard anywhere, my MG1 also has very low air pressure as well.

Now ...... I do I hate pivot arms ? not really I have plenty of those as well, I have compared my air bearing arms with even the Schroeder which is a very fine arm indeed - but the refinement and soundstage you can gain from an air bearing has to be heard to believe. Now I have heard also the very best of air bearing arms that require very high air pressure, but what I have is very much equal to the task with very low pressure. There are advantages to be gain from low pressure - such as reduction of vibrations being transferred to the arm. Smoothing out of the air being pumped using a surge tank (reservoir) also helps.

So Jean - we need to compare notes when we meet  wink tongue but do note, I do not hate pivot arms, I have over 10 of them at home, I just prefer air bearings in my setup most of the time  angel
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David cool

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jloveys
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 09:29:49 AM »

David, see my answer on Opus Cantus thread,
Should open new " linear for Jean " thread.  wink

Best,
Jean
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JEAN ...
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