Western Electric 15 a- your opinions

[knucklehead-pal]

Dear Johannes,

This JBL set looks gorgeous !
BTW, I love square pattern woofer set up !
We should hear it and compare it !
I am ready to expand my knowledge concernig JBL drivers.
The experience with JBL until now:
JBL 375/2441: 20 years, brouht BRANDNEW, listenied every day, with add.
JBL 077 or
JBL 075,
JBL 2220 J, in Klipschorn and EDGARHORN
JBL 2220 J in OB with WE 16A
JBL LE 15A,
JBL F 120 in FENDER TWIN REVERB.
JBL K2 with full Mark Levinson amp gear.

The general outline:
1. soundwise/reproduction quality, compared to QUAD ELECTROSTATS/ WECO/ALTEC gear:
more similarities in WECO/ALTEC/QUAD gear in their control group with themselves, JBL is a breed for its own:
mechanical, edgy sound. LIVEless. Voices with exorbitant sibillings, female voices coloured.
Lack of midrange energy, no "BREAST". No authority in upper and mid bass.
Wooly, overdamped low bass. Two-tone bass reproduction, no walking or singing bass.
Could be designed by Boris Becker:  BOOM-BOOM-Bass
Overdamped in its complete performace.

I tried active solid state and tube cossovers: JBL, SONY... Aldo preamp,
Audio Reearch,  DIY.

Passive crossover: 6 db/oct, 12 db/oct.OLD parts. NEW parts.
Biwiring. triwiring .

Single amping, double-amping, tri-amping:
WECO, ALTEC SS, ALTEC tube in triode mod,  KEBSCHULL 150, Audio research power amps, WECO replicas,
MOTIOGRAPH, WECO amps 91B, 42-A, B-42-A, 43-A, B-43-A, Conrad Johnson, QUAD II, Heathkit, LEAK 20 plus, WECO replikas
BRYSTON 4-B, NO amp(best !!).

Preamps:
Audio Reearch SP-8, SP-9, SP-10, Conrad Johnson Premier 3 , McIntosh C-20, C-26, Convergent CAT SL-1, ALDO preamp, WECO 49 preamp.

Enclosures:
KLIPSCHORN, 1st version
KLIPSCHORN, 15" version
KLIPSCHORN, modded to Dr.Edgar specs
BIONOR enclosure
VOTT A-7
OB.

RESUME: The JBL-"flavour", the SIGNATURE, could be EASILY extracted from all these different combos.
In ONE word: UNSATISFYING.

But this is/was OLD SCHOOL-JBL.

What is new, now ?
- CD-horns: ( which MUST be equalized)
- Ferrite or rare earth magnets: strange fieldline pattern and damping behavior comp. to FC
- New phase plugs for HF extension (Everbody does it, so JBL): There is no such thing (to my humble knowledge) as HF extension AND precise midrange presentation.
- Mylar suspension: inferior to pressed DURALUMINUM, but essential for the fragile BERRYLLIUM, and this is the only reason of its use.
- Titanium/Beryllium diaphragms. TITANIUM inferior to DURALUMINUM, marketed for touted HF-"extension".
- Composite bass membrane material: heavier, and slower (F=m x a). For touted subsonic cinema BASS performance.

From all these "Improvements" the choice of BERYLLIUM as diaphragm material should be regarded as a real sonic performance improvement.
So my expectations are REALLY high, how the JBL synergistic approach will perform in this beautiful cinema speaker, compared to other cinema systems (KF, WECO, ZEISS, ALTEC).

You must know, that I LOVE/D JBL stuff since  I was a boy: it is unbelievable crafted, has a brilliant symbol with the ! and its THREE letter signature and bears the name of its founder.
And the company produces in California. (my favoured state). My "dream system" was McIntosh two Mc 275 driving a JBL PARAGON or a HEARTSFIELD.
So My love to JBL was , allthough, at the end of the day ( a quite long day....) soundwise continously  dissapointed. A tragic love.... I wish, it would have been more....romantic.... magic....lifelike.
SEXIER !!!
Analog, base on the same reasons, my love shifted from solidly crafted minimalistic Me 109s with their phantasticly crafted Daimler Benz reversed-v engines to the incredibly better performing FW 190 with old school MMW/Jumo radial engines: FASTER, more climbing power, higher altitude, faster curving, more fire power....

So let's rock with these new speakers ! TEST movie: Scorseses "shine a light", "IT MIGHT GET LOUD, PASCHAENDALE, Music: J.S. Bach Suiten für Violoncello ( Starker),  KRAFTWERK,  SERYNK playing J.S.Bach suiten für violine, EINSTÜRZENDE NEUBAUTEN.
Whar are your dedicated  records for this shoot-out ?

Regards,

PPG

[Johannes LeBong]

A shoot-out of such big cinema-speakers vintage vs. state of the art / same size will never come true I think.
So the myth 'there is no progress in speakers' is not in danger. 

Ok, I wanted to quit - it is all too much for me 

[autobayer]

Oh yeah.
Oh no.
Again.
Back to the sandpit 
For WE´s sake: easy 
By the way - I love those horns.
They´re ugly,
they are big,
the whole stuff is expensive,
you need a super big room or better
a house for it,
it is neither HiFi nor
HighEnd
but to my humble
ears
the produce music.
No.
Wrong.
They allow
music
to happen
in the room,
in your head.
In my head.
 
Chris

[J-ROB]

I don't know about your idea, Jo...that JBL is TOO SMALL.
That whole speaker can fit inside a 15A. You can't park a small car inside the JBL.
Also, it probably costs as much or more than a 555/15A system.

Here are some of the things we can learn from a 15A.

-The unique sound of 15A for the mental library
-The notion of one big horn 60-6000hz, with no xover in vocal range.
-The shocking lesson that the first cinema speaker technology is in some ways the best.
-The lesson that "old" and "new" are not quality measurement terms.

Some of these realizations require the experience of an antique 1929 system to make the point. All knowledge can be taken along for use elsewhere once learned.

If talented and inspired experimenters can take the ancient technology to new heights, or simply successfully take it over for their own applications,  that is a win for the human species.

I am having this same argument on a different forum right now. One engineer proposed the same thing...compare old cinema system with new JBL cinema system. Not a bad idea, but the other guy is convinced that the new one must be better because it is new, modern.

He doesn't understand that I don't appreciate WE because it is a rare and beautiful antique, I love it because it is timeless.

Rejecting the "myth of progress" does not mean refusing to admit that a new speaker can be better.

In fact most old speakers are total junk, just like most new speakers.

The danger in the "myth of progress" is that it implies that speakers MUST be better because they are newer...and the growth of scientific knowledge and march of technological development is a one way street.

Like all myths, this seems quite convincing to those who live by it...but it does not hold up in the face of WE, Siemens, Eckmuller, and other mythbuster classics.

Progress is possible but it does not have to be that way just because time passes by and new plastics are constantly developed.

[slowmotion]

I've read that thread on the other forum, Joe,
but to be honest I don't think they will open their mind soon... ?  

[J-ROB]

A small extract from the forum etiquette:

I am pleased that this is a very civilized forum.  A really fine gathering.

Personally, I think this discussion is going well. There are some opinionated and motivated people on this thread which leads to lively exchange.

We are getting into some heavy issues--not discussing replacement rubber parts for old turntables.

The topic is far beyond the 15A. The 15A is just the seed.

I don't have a Lenco mod badge. Just saying that I am quite entertained and learning something here from this special collection of hardcore, thoughtful and advanced freaks.

We all understand that the other guy is entitled to his own opinion, right? Even if he is DEAD WRONG.

Seriously, different opinions among those of us who mostly agree on a lot of things is what makes it all so interesting.

[Johannes LeBong]

Hi Joe

Uups, you are right, I have never seen this one in reality.  So it was the wrong example.
I was also reading the WE thread in the DIY-Audio forum, but I did not want to register/ participate there.

As I mentioned before: I found your idea very good, to built ones own sound library. That is why it makes sense for me to listen.
The WE stuff is not in the main focus of my audio-life.

[knucklehead-pal]

Hi folks,

why is this guy running away ?
This forum is giving him A LOT of hints and the chance to convince with PERFORMANCE.
Result: When things are boiled down to facts and experiments, QUITTING seems to be the only solution.

Nobody in his his dignity and personality was touched or hampered, for my understanding.
If this was perceived in this way,

I  want to apologize for this matter.

Hurting or misregarding a person and his projects was not my attempt or my subject.-

But nevertheless, I want to hear that d*** JBL speaker... !

Best regards,

PPG

[knucklehead-pal]

So this speaker is the "contender" for a virtual contest, without been heard beforehand ?
Should we marry women from catalogues, too ?
Sorry, I was too sarkastic.
Elle McPherson could be married from a catalogue....

Regards,

PPG

[Johannes LeBong]

No reason to be sarcastic if you really read:

I was seeking the opportunity, to listen but it was not possible yet to arrange something. But I'm still interested in huge modern cinema-speakers because I want to know.
Yes I want to quit, because I do not enjoy this kind of argument-stray-bombing.

[J-ROB]

I've read that thread on the other forum, Joe,
but to be honest I don't think they will open their mind soon... ?  

It is a journey, not a destination.

Maybe 10 years later a light will turn on in somebody's head. Maybe not.

Three are some smart guys on that forum who have not, as you say, opened their minds to important things to consider in order to understand what we think we are doing with all this audio gear.

I have been working on these questions for a long time so my "facts" are obvious to me, but my viewpoint probably sounds totally off the wall to many. GOOD!

Shock value might get some peoples attention.

The dialogue takes us far beyond frequency response measurements and technical factors, to the way we organize society and build cultural worlds.

It also can teach us how we as individuals can take control and create.

WE can be a cult phenomenon more closed-minded than any
fanatical religion. Or it can inspire creative souls like Aldo to invent, expand, and build a better world, one recycled vintage transformer at a time.

My goal is not to convince people that I have the unique truth but to encourage actual thought and reflection on the questions.

Pure technical audio discussion has its place but there is a lot more to the field than numerical physics. I am more interested in people and human creativity. If "scientific mafia" notions hold us back, we must challenge them.

Everybody needs to find their own truth. Can't hurt to have more inputs in the process.

I don't often go on forums to battle with the forces of evil, but I like to keep my hand in it to keep my skills sharp.

[knucklehead-pal]

Dear Johannes,

I wanted to share ideas with you and add some substantiated experience as a
prise de sal to this on-line exchange concering a dedicated speaker.
NO STRAY-BOMBING.
Pityful, that You leave, in terms of future intersting exchanges.
I wish, I would have heard some answers to my my detailed JBL-writing, by you as a well travelled and experienced listener.
I have invited You to share experience.
You have politely denied. You travel to Honk Kong and post Your intersting exoerience on your web site.
You are not travelling to Hamburg. You love your HEINZELMANNs.

O.K., Johannes, I got the point.

Good night.

PPG

[knucklehead-pal]

Joe,

 I appreciate Your clear and spiritual thoughts.
IT IS EXACTLY as you have mentioned:
Coping with old inventions teach us something about history, about social environment, about attitude, about politics, AND  mostly, something about ourselfs.
Why this invention ?
Why at this time ?
Why should movies talk (see also the ARTIST: funny, that a B/W silent movie about love  - from 2011-  gains oscars - in 2012 !!) ?
Why are people collecting/modifying these old things ?
Is THIS the REAL pattern for a new, better world ? Opening the mind, understanding the unferlying SPIRITUAL power ?

YES !

I personally believe, that SPIRITUALITY and LOVE are the same thing and is the only POWER in this universe (beside Ohm's law*)

Good night.

*(A JOKE)

PPG

  

[moosemp]

The dialogue takes us far beyond frequency response measurements and technical factors, to the way we organize society and build cultural worlds.

As Joe said- we are on our way and we will probably never reach destination.

I have been in medicine for many years and have looked at many people dying, being critically ill and
having no fun at all in their lives.
So music for me is a kind of cure for my senses and sometimes tired soul.

I am searching not for ideal, perfect system, but just for the one that let me rest after long day at work
WE 15 is relaxing for me, since I do not think of technical issues any more, I concentrate on pure thrill that music gives.
This is all about that thrill

looking forward to see you all in Munich

[Johannes LeBong]

Dear PPG

just in case of some misunderstanding:

I do not want to leave the LENCO-HEAVEN - why should I?

I am also not shy to show some results - I often did.
Many audio-friends invite me and I also have an open house.
I also keep on travelling like a audio-pilgrim.
Time, budget and motivation is determining my priority.
I hate high end audio-fairs.

(Damn, again so many I's - sorry again)

It is only the WE discussion which is getting to hot for me now.

The topic was 'opinion', so I felt entitled to write about my opinion, (based on own observations) show some own photos of WE Stuff and so on.
Maybe this was too much smalltalk - can be true!
Sometimes I ask myself why I am going in such a discussion.  
But then it is too late...