Stanton/Pickering

[GP49]

Yes, Stanton (and by extension, Pickering) used to make its own styli.  That was what got them the business of the Library of Congress when they were doing restorations and transfers of their extensive record collection.  They were able to make styli on demand to fit all manner of strange records that the Library had collected over the years. 

I've looked at Stanton/Pickering diamond tips from that era and they have been of uniformly high quality with good polish.  A Stanton D5100E (500E stylus) from 1970 looks as good as the new old stock Stanton stylus for my Stanton 881S, though both the tip and the cantilever on the 881 are tiny by comparison for much lower mass, the polish on both tips is excellent.  Your D AT2 stylus was by no means Pickering's high-end product; yet the care put into manufacturing it is easily apparent.   I don't know whether the current Stanton, the disco cartridge people, make their own styli.  I don't have a single product of the "new" Stanton in Florida that I can examine, so I will reserve judgment as to the quality of their diamond tips.

There is "something" about those old Pickering V-15 and Stanton 500 cartridges that is, as you have noted, dynamically satisfying.  An elliptical tip takes it a quantum leap ahead in clean groove tracking. I moved on from the sphericals (V-15/AT-2, V-15/AM-2) early on, when the Stanton 500E became widely distributed, and indeed for a short time became the "house cartridge" at a large Hi-Fi chain so I could get them cheaply.  On and off, I have been using the Stanton 500 in one form or another, ever since.

[flavio81]

Your D AT2 stylus was by no means Pickering's high-end product; yet the care put into manufacturing it is easily apparent. 

Exactly. I'll try to get more NOS Pickering styli locally.

[richard]

Flavio wrote,

Getting back to that "D AT 2" stylus, yesterday i was looking at it using a magnifying glass, and the stylus diamond looked very nice, it was a bushed diamond but a pretty clear, nice one, and i wouldn't be surprised if it was also very well polished. I think i've read Stanton/Pickering used to make their own styli? I think you also mentioned that current Stanton cartridges do not have the same stylus quality than before? This worries me...

I'm not sure what I wrote, but like Gene, I cannot speak from personal experience about what the new company has been making. "New," may, in fact, have started back in Plainview, NY, even before the move to Florida, when the Company began mentally shifting their cartridges into different groups. The older method was to group the products by technology (in other words, group them, essentially, by their cartridge bodies). The new method was to group them by application. I think that this actually began around 1989, which is one reason why I've stonewalled my book to 1990. This was when the market effects from the CD became visible in Stanton's shrinking product line.

De-facto reduction in quality is easily seen in the abandonment of the former highest-performing models: all of them! Their best home cartridge today is a 681, 1.5 gram tracker, with a .3 x .7 mil tip. That's quite a drop from the samarium cobalt pickups. So, I'm not talking about manufacturing quality, but about reproduction accuracy.

The sound of this Pickering cartridge is very satisfying and better than i would have imagined. Very dynamic, with low surface noise, and subjectively "surefooted" (not distorting easily), except maybe on some inner grooves, but i haven't tested it thoroughly yet. On the other hand, the high frequency detail / clearness is not up to par with other cartridges i have, but this does not surprise me at all. If we consider that is a cartridge introduced in 1964 (or so), the sound is impressive.

As time went on, each cartridge manufacturer would come out with new models, new technologies, higher prices, etc. The 500/V15 was once the Company's top-of-the-line. So, with the subsequent introdudction of the 4-coil models, the position of the 500 was lowered in comparison, and these cartridges were subjected to price pressures as well. So, during the 80s, stylus finish quality wasn't as good as it had been earlier. I returned maybe three needles because the tips were visibly tilted (in other words, the cantilevers had settled at a tilt). Thinking about this "settling' phenomenon, which occurs in the elastomers, I realized that the stylus assembler had to use a technique similar to how I tuned harpsichords or how a decent piano tuner has to work. You have to keep in mind that tension will equalize, and you have to "worry" the thing with that in mind. In other words, to "pre-settle" the stresses. The guy you once talked about, George Alexander (Alexandrovich), phoned me about this problem, apologized, and said that finding the right people to assemble styli was a major challenge.

But, of course, over the years, this cartridge became more of a "mass-production" item. Enough of the quality was still in the line to make the new ones serious production cartridges.

Polish quality isn't such a big problem, considering that you can smooth diamond roughness just by playing dirty records for a while. I do this myself with these needles.

Both you and Gene have referred to a satisfaction, a "likableness" about these pickups. Stanton always place a lot of emphasis on the "rightness" of their product concepts for specific applications. The Company's extreme secrecy frustrated me, because it was difficult for me to find out the technical reasons for what I was hearing and working with.  It's obvious to me that Norman Pickering had given the firm a sonic model that they had adhered to.

So, I can talk about these pickups in a more subjective sense. These are fun cartridges. They sound better than we'd expect with only, good God, one coil per channel! I have at least 12 different styli for them, and every one of them does something different than the others. So, in practical terms, the versatility has probably never been matched by anyone else. Happy cartridges.

The deal killer, however, is that the tips won't align identically with each other. So, if you're going to mix and match to perfection, you'll actually need a few bodies and headshells. Now, in order to do this, too, you have to find the needles. Or get Expert to re-tip them.

Custom needles used to be handled by the small Professional Division, and I'd have to go to my notes to see who the man was who ran that particular operation. I didn't deal with that part of the Company.

[Kent T]

Thar rightness and accuracy of tone and the versatility of Stanton/Pickering cartridges is why I have used them in broadcast engineering and on air as well as at home in better versions. I play many varied records which have different needs stylus wise.

[richard]

And I'll add that the Stanton-Pickering products from the 1980s were simply the most practical and versatile I've ever seen. And the sensibility of features just blows away any other brand I know of. There are other excellent cartridges, and I don't want to denegrate them.

Whereas other manufacturers (especially Shure) put out lots of expensive publicity materials, Stanton was the opposite: they were not fond of bragging and hardly even hinted about the excellent, patented, engineering features in their cartridges. I've even traced aerospace influence in their needles.

I have a collection, a moribund flea circus of broken needles. There are hardly any Stantons among them. That should tell you something.

[brownemi]

Apologies to the original OP, but does anyone have any info re the Stanton 885LZS? It seems the web is dry on any details. Does it compare favourable to the 881 etc? I bought one on a whim and have yet to listen to it but it seems a rare beast and I hope it's ok???

Thanks Richard also for the great earlier posts- very insightful and I look forward to purchasing your book as I am a keen Stanton and Pickering collector. cheers Michael

[richard]

Apologies to the original OP, but does anyone have any info re the Stanton 885LZS? It seems the web is dry on any details. Does it compare favourable to the 881 etc? I bought one on a whim and have yet to listen to it but it seems a rare beast and I hope it's ok???

It was similar to the 980/981LZS but with slightly reduced specifications. Your cartridge was a standard model.
Compliance is slightly lower, which may ba a practical advantage to most people.

Relative to the 881, it's hard to put a "happiness quotient" on these products. In terms of design, the low-impedance models (and the one high-impedance variant on them) are the Company's ultimate performers. Ever. However, as I've written many times before, what really matters in the long run is whether it's a good cartridge for you, and especially, for the music that you enjoy.

Recently, I was hired to consult with an audiophile halfway around the world about these cartridges. He mentioned that relative to other typical low-impedance, low-output cartridges (all of them moving coils, of course), the output spec of the 981LZS was low, something like maybe 30-50% lower. I'd never really looked into this earlier. With my own 981 and 785LZE (the elliptical version), I have used a dedicated Stanton head amp, and it sounds fine. But regarding the use of these cartridges with other head amps, I just can't report from personal experience. If there had been any difficulties, I figure that they'd have turned up someplace among the 10 international reviews that I have for the 980LZS. After all, incompatibility would have been a major issue!

I'm just saying this as a possible heads-up: you may need a quieter, stronger head amp or MC stage to get the best from this cartridge. Likewise, I don't know how these pickups will work with moving coil transformers. There's been very little audiophile chatter about them, but like everything Stanton or Pickering, the products never transcended the audiophile "snoot threshold." But then, neither did Lenco turntables. Lencos are not "snooty turntables" and, delightfully, this is not a snooty BBS.

Note that for all the samarium-cobalt cartridges, the cantilevers are not as strong as those of prior Stanton/Pickering products. There is still an excellent ruggedness/performance ratio, but remember that you can break these needles. And considering that your only longevity option is having your cantilever re-tipped by Expert Stylus, it's important to keep the stylus assembly intact: your cartridge is not a cat toy. One of our Lencophiles will soon send off his broken 881 cantilever for a repair and a diamond, so we'll learn how successful such surgery was.

You should be very happy with it.

PS: I hope to announce the book very soon ("The Stanton-Pickering Cartridge and Stylus Handbook," working title). There always seems to be one more thing to put into it, so it gets put off. It's up to 50 pages already! I need some help figuring out how to bind it, which will add to the price.

[brownemi]

Thanks Richard, I also have a denon MC head unit and will try it with that. Good luck with publishing the book, maybe just sell it as a PDF as we are all becoming more accustomed to reading on screen and one can print it if need be. cheers Michael

[richard]

Thanks, Michael.

But I won't be offering the Handbook in electronic form for one overpowering reason: it'll be too easy to steal. I've put a lot of my life into this book, and if I offer it only as a paper print, it'll at least slow down the "appropriators." This wasn't an easy decision because my tendency (as you can see in my many posts) is to want to share what I know and my enthusiasm with other people.

But, already, I see ideas that I've posted, even terms that I've invented, on the audiophile Web, without credit. That's OK, and is to be expected. And I've seen my words, wholesale, on sites where I never submitted them. that's of more concern. And an invention of my father's was stolen. So, I'm sensitive. I've got to get something in return for, at least, the time that I've spent writing it out. It would be nice, too, to recoup the cost of the train fare out to the middle of Long Island when I visited the Stanton factory. As you can probably see, there was a lot of personal cost to obtain the knowledge that's in this book. I've tried to make the Handbook incredibly useful, and unlike any other audio publication, ever.

Hope you understand.

[Steve]

Anyone have any experience with this?
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=STAD0098S

[richard]

The stylus has a cantilver made of "Zualum." An Ixquick search revealed that this is a rare substance that is mined high in the Himalayas only for use in phono cantilevers. The mine is guarded by fierce vinyl addicts who will garrott anyone who approaches. It's a horrible death, so only one manufacturer has the bravery to deal with the addicts. He brings gifts of Grateful Dead albums, and they, in turn, allow him to retrieve enough Sacred Powder for a limited number of cantilevers.

Other manufacturers have tried using Zippium, Collanium, Zacchium, and Gluppium, but all four of these rare earth materials have failed to provide the results of the authentic Zualum.

Seriously, I assume that you have a related cartridge, right?
Now, the real meat of the answer:
I have no idea what this bogus substance is. Stanton's original material was aluminum, with a stiffness/weight ratio achieved by patented shaping and machining, with an unusual degree of tracing accuracy achieved by a unique, patented fastening method. Stanton's styli were protected by patents, and more patents, and even more patents. I've long suspected that their cantilever designs were influenced by aeronautical engineering.

The imitation may be good, but in general, but unless proved otherwise, I'd say that the original was better. Having said that, I must say, too, that I've used one brand of aftermarket styli from approximately 1980 with good results. That is, good despite having to use them in sacrificial cartridge bodies because their mounting tubes are too big. My experience over the decades has been that aftermarket needles almost always don't hit the mark. However, I'd be delighted to be proved wrong!

So, we have a genuine Shibata diamond shape in this one. Has the diamond been properly aligned? Well, I don't know. Is the Shibata shape better than the original? Depends on what you want to do with it. The Shibata was designed to resolve the RF carrier wave in the CD4 quadraphonic process. The original Stanton Stereohedron (tm) tip could resolve 50,000 Hz (or maybe I'm thinking of the Stereohedron II). I don't think that this is of much concern relative to what's recorded on actual music LPs. I wouldn't be surprised if the 981HZS body would produce excellent, usable CD4 output.

Option #2 is to send off the original worn needle to Expert Stylus for a re-tip. This would preserve the original features of the original Stanton needle. Expert will be able to recommend one of their advanced tip shapes that's the best match to Stanton's orignal.

The fact that this seller is offering a replacement for the 981 stylus is interesting, since I don't remember seeing anyone offering it before. Some needle sellers (and needle makers) don't seem to realize that styli cannot be interchanged beween Stanton and Pickering samarium cobalt cartridge models  and still produce the original tonal balance. So, what would concern me is if this is just a needle that's correct for the more popular 881, claimed to be for the 981. We've discussed waht this mismatch sounds like earlier.

You could buy one of these and then tell us how you like it. The price is pretty good.

[GP49]

A Google search reveals more than one vendor using this mysterious Zualum material, and on replacement styli for low-end Audio-Technica cartridges and the Sanyo OEM cartridges used by Numark and Ion, not just expensive Stantons.

Wonder if the manufacturer's name is contracted to "Zu" (in imitation of the "Zu" we know about) and this was combined with the contraction for "aluminum."

To me the correct contraction would be BS.

[Steve]

The stylus has a cantilver made of "Zualum." An Ixquick search revealed that this is a rare substance that is mined high in the Himalayas only for use in phono cantilevers. The mine is guarded by fierce vinyl addicts who will garrott anyone who approaches. It's a horrible death, so only one manufacturer has the bravery to deal with the addicts. He brings gifts of Grateful Dead albums, and they, in turn, allow him to retrieve enough Sacred Powder for a limited number of cantilevers.

Other manufacturers have tried using Zippium, Collanium, Zacchium, and Gluppium, but all four of these rare earth materials have failed to provide the results of the authentic Zualum

Richard, you're funny...I guess I'm aware of the ridiculousness of the Willie Wonka-ish
"Zualum".  I'm laughing to myself thinking of Oompa Loompas mining it in Tibetistan.
But I was really just wondering about the fit, and the diamond.

It doesn't matter now anyway.  I sent it back (981).  After getting it in the mail, it turned out to be a scam.  The seller put 6800 EL stylus into it, after claiming it had the proper stereohedron type.  According to Kabusa these are incompatible.  I'll have to wait for the next time around.

[flavio81]

We had a thread on the esoteric "Zualum" on vinylengine. A LPgear representative answered by email saying that this is a propietary alloy by the manufacturer of the styli.

Well, on topic: I bought a Stanton D89 AL conical stylus (around 1992, stylus for the 890AL cart which has the same resistance and inductance as the Stanton 881S), mid-low compliance (VTF "2 to 7g") and figured out it would be a great match for the Pickering XSV/3000 body (same electrical footpront as the 881) my seller had in stock.

Yes indeed! It sounds very good, actually i never thought a conical stylus could sound so good! The low compliance is a good match with the L75 arm.

[GP49]

We had a thread on the esoteric "Zualum" on vinylengine. A LPgear representative answered by email saying that this is a propietary alloy by the manufacturer of the styli.

Well, on topic: I bought a Stanton D89 AL conical stylus (around 1992, stylus for the 890AL cart which has the same resistance and inductance as the Stanton 881S), mid-low compliance (VTF "2 to 7g") and figured out it would be a great match for the Pickering XSV/3000 body (same electrical footpront as the 881) my seller had in stock.

Yes indeed! It sounds very good, actually i never thought a conical stylus could sound so good! The low compliance is a good match with the L75 arm.

The Pickering XSV3000 is NOT an electrical match to the Stanton 881.  Its operating principle is the same but its coils are different in DC resistance and in inductance.