Stanton/Pickering

[paul300b]

Hi guys,
Score! Today I bought for nz $10 each these NOS styli,

Stanton L747s
Pickering D4000
Pickering D3000 x2
Pickering D2000-Q x2
Pickering D200
Pickering D140 X2   

I've a Pickering Vsx3000, and 3 uv-15 bodies. All the D-**** styli should fit the Vsx3000 huh?
Cheers
Paul       

[richard]

Paul wrote,

Stanton L747s
Pickering D4000
Pickering D3000 x2
Pickering D2000-Q x2
Pickering D200
Pickering D140 X2   

I've a Pickering Vsx3000, and 3 uv-15 bodies. All the D-**** styli should fit the Vsx3000 huh?

That's a nice and interesting assortment of stuff you've got there. All new?

Vsx3000?
Now, even I have to guess about that one because it's not a standard model number, but one of those private label things made up for some stereo retail chain someplace. It's a standard body, perhaps and probably the XSV/3000. No promises! Use Gene's dangling pin method to at least figure out what principle it uses.

Oh, wait a minute: did you make a typing error?

Buy my book and you'll be able to figure it all out. That's why I wrote the book!

Except if you really typed the cartridge number accurately! I don't have the private label cartridges in the book because they made up the numbers as they went along and never published the details. However, I spent an incredible amount of time gathering and correlating the data, so I actually do have most of the "standard" private label replacement needles in the book, although the data is spotty for them. Spotty: not "iffy."

Note strongly: "fits" doesn't mean "works properly." In this case, you actually have listed needles operating on two different principles, and you shouldn't mix the technologies due to possible unintended magnetic transfer. And this would really mess up what you've got. Don't go sticking needles into bodies until and unless you know what you have and what goes with what.

Man, the world seems to be raining quadraphonic needles lately. But not the good ones! Although the quads are outside the years that my book covers, I just made an exception and added the quad products for two reasons:
- the technology of the final one was brought forward for stereo, and
- there's been a flurry of interest in them recently.

Congratulations on your score!

[wer]

Sadly, since what you have isn't a Pickering UV-15 stylus at all, but a third party's idea of what might work with a UV-15 body ....

No Gene, it is an original NOS Pickering D2000-Q, complete with box and D2000-Q written on top of the finger grip and bronze coloured brush holder.

Yesterday, for the first time, i saw a picture of a UV15, and at least from the outside it looks quite the same as the XV15/68x. Already sneeked out another Thorens with a much lighter arm (TP11 MkIII), and if my wife gives me an hour off from Christmas-mania i will put in a motor and an XV15 to see if it tracks better.

[GP49]

No Gene, it is an original NOS Pickering D2000-Q, complete with box and D2000-Q written on top of the finger grip and bronze coloured brush holder.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.  That's better!

I am not at home, so I don't have access to my references about the Pickering bodies as to coil resistance and inductance.  If the XV-15 and UV-15 bodies were the same there is no reason why substituting one for the other would make any difference; however, since the UV-15 had to respond to the CD-4 signals, it may have been built with lower inductance coils.  It WAS specified for use into a different load capacitance.

[paul300b]

Paul wrote,

That's a nice and interesting assortment of stuff you've got there. All new?

Vsx3000?
Now, even I have to guess about that one because it's not a standard model number, but one of those private label things made up for some stereo retail chain someplace. It's a standard body, perhaps and probably the XSV/3000. No promises! Use Gene's dangling pin method to at least figure out what principle it uses.

Oh, wait a minute: did you make a typing error?

Buy my book and you'll be able to figure it all out. That's why I wrote the book!

Except if you really typed the cartridge number accurately! I don't have the private label cartridges in the book because they made up the numbers as they went along and never published the details. However, I spent an incredible amount of time gathering and correlating the data, so I actually do have most of the "standard" private label replacement needles in the book, although the data is spotty for them. Spotty: not "iffy."

Note strongly: "fits" doesn't mean "works properly." In this case, you actually have listed needles operating on two different principles, and you shouldn't mix the technologies due to possible unintended magnetic transfer. And this would really mess up what you've got. Don't go sticking needles into bodies until and unless you know what you have and what goes with what.

Man, the world seems to be raining quadraphonic needles lately. But not the good ones! Although the quads are outside the years that my book covers, I just made an exception and added the quad products for two reasons:
- the technology of the final one was brought forward for stereo, and
- there's been a flurry of interest in them recently.

Congratulations on your score!

Good news, typing error. All are new, in sealed boxes. I may sell the d4000 if it is the wrong impedance for the 3000 body. Where can I purchase your book? Thanks again,
Paul

[paul300b]

Correction 2.0
 I have a XSV/3000 body, one uv-15 body (with 2x 2400q stylus) and 3 x Xv-15 bodies. Also a Stanton p-mount L747 body.

May try the XSV/3000 on a low mass Grace 707 or a Mayware tonearm.

P

[richard]

Oh, that's a lot better. I have a little dread about the first round of the Stanton quad cartridges: there have been some rumblings, even an informed one. But since you're the only person I've seen in a long time who is actually equipped, it would be interesting to set it up and see how it comes through as a mono cartridge with standard (not quad) loading. I'm curious to know myself. Just because I have expertise about the brand doesn't mean that I know everything. But my curiosity doesn't seem to end.

As I mentioned earlier, there were more than 130 unique needles from these people in the early-mid 1980s, and this only included one quad needle, and it was not yours. I bought a couple of these needles out of curiosity a while back.  I don't have the body, nor do I want one.

For my book, there's a description on this board under "Market Place/Traders."
(Sorry: I shouldn't have been so crass about it in my last post.)

I think that you'll like the 3000, and (hint) perhaps the 4000, too.
Both need arms that get along with their very-high compliance.

[willbewill]

Picture of Pickering Cartridges

http://audio-database.com/PICKERING/etc/index.html

[wer]

Help please, what is the difference between man-month and metafil-input cartridge 

Thanks for the link, already added to my private data collection 

[willbewill]

Help please, what is the difference between man-month and metafil-input cartridge 

Thanks for the link, already added to my private data collection 

Great descriptions aren't they

man-month   = Moving Magnet
metafil-input = Moving Iron

[richard]

Thanks, Malcolm.

I didn't know about this site. There are a couple of cartridges here that I'm curious about. For example, are they just re-named former items, or are they actually different? One that I just looked at appeared to be just a classic Stanton, now re-branded Pickering, with a Pickering finger grip. A disco cartridge with, perhaps, decent home application too.

[wer]

Out of mind, out of sight ...
automatic translation:  stupid, blind

Thank you Malcolm, could not have guessed that 

[willbewill]

An interesting Stanton/Pickering thread here

http://forums.audioreview.com/analog-room/stanton-881s-stylus-replacement-new-cartridge-28162-3.html

With a couple of former employees contributing.

[GP49]

An interesting Stanton/Pickering thread here

http://forums.audioreview.com/analog-room/stanton-881s-stylus-replacement-new-cartridge-28162-3.html

With a couple of former employees contributing.

I'm glad to see one of the former employees "NFAlbert" saying:

What the manufacturers of these replacements may have done is to create a product
that will cause the cartridge to resume functioning if purchased, which may be adaquate
for some buyers.

Which is another way of saying, "the sound of the cartridge is the sound of its stylus..."

You have to decide whether the third-party replacement's performance is adequate for YOU. 

He continues:

The crimp on the LP Gear stylus tube appears to be different than the original 881S which used a
suspension for which I am named as the inventor with Stanton being the owner. Perhaps the LP
Gear D81 is slightly different construction than that of the original, such as the cantilever assembly
being self contained and merely having to be inserted into the originally size stylus housing. This type
of construction would make it easier for a replacement stylus manufacturer to use a few standard
cantilever, magnet and suspension assemblies and then fit them into a housing having the original
manufacturers dimensions.

It would also make the "replacements" using such standard assemblies sound like each other, rather than
like the original stylus they are claimed to replace. 

Again: The sound of the cartridge is the sound of its stylus.

[richard]

Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention again, Gene. I agree with your points. On the second read-through, a few issues jumped into my mind that I may have missed the last time around, mixed with a few more musings. I'd like to share them now.

- My own involvement with the company came after I had apprenticed with Joe Minor, of Berkeley Custom Electronics. Joe's health was deteriorating and he could not maintain his business, and that's why I began my own custom audio business. Joe was an unusual combination of expertise, being both an acoustics engineer and an electronics engineer. He was also an avid jazz enthusiast. It seemed that anyone in audio in this area who was thoughtful about his work had done a stint with Joe. I miss the guy. Working in custom electronics, my involvement with the technology of Stanton's products was much more intimate than the involvement of a typical retailer, even a high-end one.

- The two Stanton people in this linked thread are quite different.  Albert was a design engineer for both companies.  Maidel was in sales for Pickering.

- Maidel's involvement with the company occurred at two widely-separated times. The second period was after Stanton was effectively re-born in Florida. The first was much earlier, before Albert had arrived. So Albert was with the company in between. And my own involvement, although not as an employee, was when neither of these people were with the company. My book reflects the products that Stanton offered while I was a Stanton dealer, extending for a few years in both directions before and after. This is fortunate because Stanton's product line was its most extensive during that period: the designs were both mature and stable. I interacted with different engineers.

- One thing that is missing from this discussion is the quality of matching stylus and body. In effect, the Stanton people have said that the people asking their questions might be satisfied with given substitutions. They didn't comment on the accurace of the mismatches. There's a real difference here.

- Thinking about aftermarket needles in light of what Gene just wrote, I'm reflecting on a few things. I visited the factory on one aftermarket needle company, which was a cross between a needle manufacturer and an importer, who sometimes imported sub-assemblies, combining them. I have spoken in detail with the principals of  two additional aftermarket needle companies. Among my styli are the products of at least three aftermarket needle manufacturers. All of these are substitutions for high-quality needles.

- It's obvious to me that a few of these deliver excellent quality performance. However, their sound is not identical to the originals. And, in fact, each of these styli is only a good match for one particular original needle; it will be a worse match for other needles in the original series. If you want the precise original performance and have a worn original stylus, your best renewal will probably be by having your original stylus re-tipped.

- Not long ago, Gene unearthed a Stanton stylus patent that I've been thinking about (I'm not sure that it's Albert's patent that's referenced in the linked thread or not).  In this patent, there's a very unusual and special relationship between the mounting tube's crimp and the formed elastomer inside the tube. The function of this patented design is to add yet additional precision to the cantilever's longitudinal control. This improvement should be audible as the result of its tracing precision. Assuming that this patent had run out, would an aftermarket supplier duplicate this design? I absolutely cannot imagine that they would.

Bottom line with these high-quality styli: the aftermarket copy may be quite good, but it won't have the ultimate excellence of the original. Will it be good enough for you? Maybe. This depends on you, your own listening precision, and the music that you enjoy. You may hear the difference; you may not.

- If you want to buy an aftermarket replacement stylus, it will be beneficial to know precisely which stylus the imitation comes the closest to matching. Is this the needle that you want? If so, buying will probably be successful. Are these substitutions acceptable? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.