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Author Topic: Wind Your Own Mains Transformer  (Read 5622 times)
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 10:39:49 AM »

A choke input supply has advantages over a capacitor input supply.  It draws almost constant current from the transformer rather than high current pulses.  It has also lower impedance.  Also, using a couple of chokes in the power supply allows you to use capacitors with modest capacitance.  Then you can use film capacitors rather than electrolytic.

Yes, completely agree.  (One cannot argue with physics!  Well, one can, but it never ends well.)

What I find interesting is that the choke supply was originally the ONLY way to build a power supply, because electrolytics were small and expensive until about the 1970s.  Yet with the introduction of large capacitance electrolytics in small packages and at relatively low cost the choke fell by the wayside.  Yet it has so many advantages, as you noted.

I have not seen good hard data on whether or not a large capacitor bank, say 1,000uF, is as good as a small dual (smoothing and swinging chokes) choke supply with 1 or 1.5H chokes and 100uF per stage.  I've run the filter calculations which show a point of diminishing returns.  But that doesn't address the real world under transient load.  I must learn more about analog simulation to model this.

I think your explanation could be easily applied to making power supply chokes.

Why would AC heaters pull less continues current than DC heaters?  I have experimented with different heater supplies.  In my amplifiers,  which have indirectly heated cathodes, I have found that heating the tubes with AC gives better sound.  If you are careful when doing the heater wiring, you will get no problems with hum.  Directly heated cathodes may be different, but I have no experience from it.

Sorry, that was poorly worded from brevity.

What I was trying to say is that from what I've read once a DC heater is hot the current demand is relatively constant, but the current load varies considerably during initial heating.   This is why DC heater regulators are often Constant Current Sources (CCS) to reduce the startup load on the power supply (transformer, rectifier, and caps). When cold the current demand is very high, of course, but this falls off as the heater warms up.  So CCS doesn't stress the power transformer as much.

Now as far as AC, I don't know exactly what AC heaters do in terms of current demand once hot, because I've read that it slightly varies with the AC cycle.  The initial load of an AC heater can, as with the DC heater, be quite high, of course, and since it is not generally regulated (one could use a non-linear thermistor to gradually ramp up the current, of course) this can stress the transformer on startup.

So I was disclaiming knowledge of the effect of AC heaters on the transformer magnetic flux available for other windings on an ongoing basis.

What I have read is that having B+ on the same transformer can siphon off heater current during transients.  So a DC heater supply would, if it had a bank of caps and maybe a choke to stabilize, be reduce that leeching problem.

As far as hum, I have read the trick of using twisted pair with solid-wire.  I am surprised that DC didn't deliver lower noise in your experiments.

I have also read that keeping the heater windings on a separate transformer is the best.  On my pre-amplifier, I did that.  A matter of cost, effort and chassis space...

Ahhh, yes, chassis area.

When I discovered how and why chokes were used I thought, great, why not start adding big ones, like 10H, 20H, etc.  to amps. Should be great power even under transients.  And then I found out just how physically large and heavy they were, and how much they cost, and thought, hmmm, now I understand why smaller ones are used on most amps.

Sorry, didn't mean to divert your thread into the merits of chokes.

I'm curious about the difference between the various E/I core materials for power transformers.  Did you find any difference between them?

I saw you haven't (yet?) wound an output transformer, but I wonder would it be of any quality?  From what I've read, the core materials and shapes matter, as does the winding technique, which is why some output transformers are reported to sound better than others.
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niclaspa
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 12:47:37 PM »

When I compared AC and DC heating, I did not measure the noise.  However, my ears could not detect any difference, when I used the amplifier in a normal way.  Of course, I might have been able to hear increased noise with AC heating if I had turned to volume up to maximum and put my ear in front of the speaker.   wink  The interesting thing is that the music sounded much better with AC heating.  I tried different DC supplies - voltage regulated and passive.  The voltage regulated supply had the worst effect on the sound. 

Have you tried the freeware Duncan's PSU Designer II (http://www.duncanamps.com/psud2/)?  It allows you to simulate power supplies: 



With this, you can compare the performance of a supply with a large capacitor bank with one with chokes.

Lundahl makes chokes that have high inductance in relation to their size (http://www.lundahl.se/).  Unfortunately, they are not cheap.

I am sure that different core materials and shapes have an effect on mains transformers, but I know nothing about it.   sad

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Niclas

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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 05:29:57 AM »

I tried different DC supplies - voltage regulated and passive.  The voltage regulated supply had the worst effect on the sound.


Voltage regulators have very poor ripple current behavior which causes high-frequency noise.

Have you tried the freeware Duncan's PSU Designer II ... It allows you to simulate power supplies: 
With this, you can compare the performance of a supply with a large capacitor bank with one with chokes.


Yes, I have used it, thanks.

My questions were not answered by it because it doesn't show me what happens under transient load, which forces the choke to convert magnetic field to current.  Which leads to the key question in an amplifier's power supply: how does it respond to load?

All I see with dual chokes is that larger capacitance isn't really much necessary and that smaller caps are fine.  But that doesn't tell us anything about the value of high caps for reserve current for transients, and how much is ideal.  400uF?  1,000uF?  4,000uF?

I know a number of amps have large banks of power supply caps for this purpose, but don't know what analysis was done to determine the value.

I am sure that different core materials and shapes have an effect on mains transformers, but I know nothing about it.   sad


This is the sort of thing I had been reading: http://www.vias.org/eltransformers/lee_electronic_transformers_03_03.html

You'll notice the chart showing substantial differences in lamination materials.  Silicon steel vs. different types of nickel steel, for example.
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low pitch
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 06:18:04 AM »

PSUD2 will show any ringing if you use the constant current step change.
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martin

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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 06:45:31 AM »

PSUD2 will show any ringing if you use the constant current step change.

Right, yes, I'm certainly aware of this, but that isn't quite what I'm after.

I want to see the effects of sagging in the B+ supply resulting from transient loading or non-linear speaker response.  So if the current demand spikes upwards because of a loud passage (happens in both the amplifier and because of cone excursion), those electrons have to be supplied from somewhere.

They are first supplied from the last capacitor bank in the smoothing Pi filter, then from the smoothing choke itself via the magnetic flux, then from the capacitor bank between the swinging and smooth Pi Filter, then from the swinging choke, and then from the (small) capacitor between the rectifier and swinging choke.

Except not really, of course.

The demand is always pulling electrons out of the circuitry to the left of it, all the way back to the rectifier and power transformer.  The chokes just slow this down, because the magnetic flux acts as a buffer, and the capacitor banks slow this down because they are full of charge which flows outward.  It's like baffle barriers to a storm surge to damp out each wave.

So this isn't about modeling ringing or noise, it's about modeling a voltage drop caused by variations in output load.
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Turbon
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2017, 08:05:50 PM »

Niclaspa, sorry to say but all pictures seems to have passed some date. I would like t see this as sticky as the knowledge is timeless.

Admins?

Regards
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niclaspa
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2017, 08:16:18 PM »

Turbon, it seems like photobucket is down at the moment!  If it gets back up, the pictures will reappear. 
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Niclas

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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2017, 08:26:22 PM »

Which is why we like members to use our own photo hosting service wink
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malcolm ("You can't shine if you don't burn" - Kevin Ayers)

colorIf what I'm hearing is colouration, then bring on the whole rainbow color
niclaspa
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2017, 09:11:42 PM »

Well, I actually started to use Photobucket when it was not possible to use Lencoheaven's picture upload function.  On the advice of the administrators, I used a hosting service instead.  Photobucket was given as an example.  Then, I just kept going...
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Niclas

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2017, 07:40:11 PM »

Nice, the pics are back just as I need them

Regards
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2017, 11:34:38 AM »

Hi, I am slowly picking up on this with much help and suggestions from Niclas. Thank you again. As I am an experimental fella and have two quite big irons. EI-134.2 to be exact.
I am planning for 2*320V@0,4A + 2*6.3V@8A from each. It gives some 360VA which they should be able to deliver - IF I can fit the neccessary wire sizes in to the windows. I will prioritise HT. If needed another transformer will take care of the heaters as 5V is already planned to be fed from its own. As the irons did not come with a bobbin I have started to build my own as I can't find the right ones on the net.

Some pictures describing my efforts so far which did enlighten some attention my machinery needs. The Emcos needs cleaning and new rings. As they stopped working more coarse machinery had to be used - which were to fast. The result so far needs some epoxying to fill the overcuts. Anyway - the corebobbins are created. . Material for the outer shoulders (walls?) is ordered (1mm) and I already have the intersecting wall material (0,5mm).

Regards



The whole cave needs a cleanup and sorting after this sad
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niclaspa
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2017, 02:22:06 PM »

Turbon, nice work!  Your workshop looks awesome! cool
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Niclas

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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2017, 03:09:59 PM »

Niclas - you are joking - right?

Between every project I have to clean the mess as I only have a few sq meters. It is filled with stuff that have found their last resort in my cave. I really should sell and buy a farmhouse with some barns to realy get going. But lazy as I am cleaning have to do

Regards
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niclaspa
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 04:48:29 PM »

The size of your workshop was not evident from the pictures.  But, I did see some serious looking machinery there!   wink
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Niclas

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« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2017, 06:44:02 PM »

The intersecting "walls". I am unclear of how to proceed... should I wind the 2*320V bifilar in one go or should I layer them? Maybe bye more material for intersections and totally isolate them. Of course it costs 0,5mm from the available area. I have to think about this.

Regards

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