A take on the Nantais weighted string to hold the idler to spindle and platter

[rickmcinnis]

I have been playing around with my LENCO for almost ten years now and have tried almost everything.

Just a rundown - I am using a slate plinth from OMA that is as large as he can make.  the plinth is suspended atop springs that give it a very low frequency suspension.

My DSP boxes and LINO phono stage are placed on the "shelf", the extra depth of the plinth behind the platter.

I use five of the sadly departed TTW copper plates atop the platter, an early top plate from Mr. Reinders.  Sien's bearing and Pete Riggle's tonearm.

My motor is not attached to the plinth but sits below on the massive block of birch plywood that was my first plinth but is now part of my turntable stand.   One needs room down there for Sien's bearing.  I had made the motor modification before getting his fine bearing which made it an easy change for me.  Moving the motor is not as big as deal as many might think though one must suspend the plinth whose weight will determine what springs you will use.  Getting the springs right is the trickiest part and since most everyone does it differently there is no simple spring part one can specify.

I just recently installed AUDIO CREATIVE's idler wheel and idler arm grommet.  Yes, they are expensive but after you use them you realize they are worth every cent.

Not to forget wer's wonderful idler thing - I am at a loss for the proper term but I feel sure all of you know his piece that holds the idler wheel in place instead of that DAMNED circlip.

I am using the ROADRUNNER tachometer and the EAGLE motor controller.

With the tachometer one can easily see how the speed constancy is affected by any modification.

After using for years a (not typical) rubber band instead of the spring I decided to revisit Mr. Nantais's string and weight idea.  The first time I tried it the motor was still attached to the plinth and I did not have a good way to run the string.  How with the motor part of the top plate no longer needed there is a hole perfectly sited for this so I tried it last night with a bit of nylon sewing thread and a counter weight piece i did not need from the tonearm.

Well it worked very well this time.  As an aside at this time I as able to assure myself that without some pressure the idler wheel will not stay in contact.  Maybe this is possible with only the standard platter?  Some say it can work.  I do not think so.

I immediately noticed the speed was hovering much closer to where it is supposed to be.  Listening there was certainly an added measure of dynamic immediacy.

I started thinking about that weight hanging below the plinth and being able to be swayed by any and everything that can happen within the room of a house and thought - why not let the weight rest in a bath of silicone?  I have a few viscosities laying about so I poured some 10k centistoke into a medicine bottle cap and set it so the weight rested on it - it is a round piece about one-half inch in diameter - maybe an eighth of an inch is submerged and took a listen to that and I think this is the key to making this really work.

The tachometer showed great speed stability.  I do not think any LENCO is going to ever stay at 33.333 forever but it did stay there for seconds at a time and then would drift up and down - 33.400 to 33.300 in an easy slow variation.

I am not sure Mr. Nantais has damped his weight but I have a feeling he has - I do not keep up with what he is doing so i do not know but I do know this is something good for folks wanting to get just a bit more from their LENCOs.

I figure the silicone bath allows some damping of the idler arm?  I am going to try some 30 gauge copper wire tonight instead of the thread.  It must be tried!  Could the metal wire transmit more spurious vibration to the silicone bath?  Oh, the vivid imagination of the audio kook!

For those willing to try things for themselves before opining.

For those who need a turntable that needs them.

[Adelmo]

Hi Rick,

Interesting presentation and tweak suggestion. Your TT for sure is one of the good and most interesting one.

By the way any pic or link of your TT?

Tks n rgds

Adelmo

[Robert Young]

Nice description, Rick! Love the silicone idea.

But as I am illiterate, I rely on my 8 year old daughter to read posts for me, and....

PICTURES!!!

 

(I always wanted to use Ropie's emoji!)

[Brumm]

Would be very nice if you could tell us also the weight of that weight 

Greetings,
Hansrudolf

[Robert Young]

Hi Hansrudolf,

I'm hoping that Rick will reply - and provide the much - appreciated pictures as well! - but in the meantime, here's a pic of Jean's most current version of the tweak (which I have yet to install). It weighs in at 42.5 grams/1.5 ounces.

It's well-made, and I'm looking forward to giving it a go, as my spring is a bit flaccid these days. 

[KariFS]

I think I am going to steal this idea

My spring is shot, It had been shortened by the previous owner, and it was too tight. So I tried to stretch it a little, but stretched it just a little too much, then shortened it a little too much, then... well, you get the picture. Now it works ok for 33 and 45 rpm, but is a bit slack for 16 and tight for 78 due to the coil part being too short. Not that I use the 16 or 78 at all, but the engineer in me wants things to work, regardless the necessity  

I was also suspicious of the string-mass thing swinging about, but damping it with silicone fluid sounds like a great solution! The spring doesn’t have any damping either, so it probably ”rings” a little.

Anyway, Rick or Robert, how much does the weight weight? If you don’t have a suitable scale available, the main dimensions will do. I assume Robert’s Nantais product is made of brass.

Thanks!

Edit... Sorry, somehow missed the number Robert gave Seems a little hefty, definitely on the ”safe side” as far as functionality is concerned. Not sure if it loads the idler wheel more than necessary though. But it’s a good, apparently verified starting point.

[wer]

Hi Hansrudolf,

I'm hoping that Rick will reply - and provide the much - appreciated pictures as well! - but in the meantime, here's a pic of Jean's most current version of the tweak (which I have yet to install). It weighs in at 42.5 grams/1.5 ounces.

That seems rather heavy to me?

[JGN]

Y Agree. So far over the reallity and the necessity

[rickmcinnis]

Thanks for the replies.

I will take some photos and measure the weight of the WEIGHT.

I can assure you it is nowhere as massive as what it seems Mr. Nantais is using and I am completely baffled by that "contraption". What is connected to the idler?

I was concerned that since my set up is pretty different it would not apply to everyone so I thought pictures would be of little use. 

I am using a hole vacated by the no longer used PTP motor mount.  This hole was very nicely aligned for the hole that is used by the spring on the idler.  If you stay with the motor mounted to the plinth you will have to make a hole.

I have tried other places on the idler other than that position when using the various rubber bands - I am of the opinion now it is the ideal spot.

I have tried the 30 gauge copper wire and I think it is a little better.  I have used JB WELD to make a smooth transition to the hole.  Polished it up and put a film of 1000 centistoke silicone on it and the wire.

I continue to be amazed at the speed consistency.  I have to mention that if i walk in the vicinity of the turntable there is a disruption in speed consistency that quickly rights itself.  Not for those who want to dance on a suspended floor.  I did not have the tachometer when i used the LENCO pieces as they were intended but i feel certain the same thing would occur and with greater variations.

I did not mention this since i intended to refine the install but now I wonder if it is actually a good idea - the wire from the idler arm goes through the hole in the counterweight piece and is then attached to the plinth so there is a V shape to the weight's suspension.  It is crudely attached with the use of modeling clay to the plinth since I am still playing around with it but I can see myself sticking with this since it is easy to dismantle and just as easy to put back in place.

It does not take that much force to get the motor/platter/idler to work but it does take a bit more to get it to stay in place.  I remember reading about this when Mr. Nantais first described it - I continue to think he may be using too much weight.  I do not see any advantage in any more pressure against these pieces than is necessary.

One advantage of my setup is one can finally disengage the idler when using the top plate.  Takes about five seconds to replace the blob of clay when you are ready to play records.  It has to be better for the idler wheel.

It is a shame the ROAD RUNNER is no longer available - it is a great tool for us kooks.

One problem that continues is the horrible noises that exist on some LPs when one has a truly full range loudspeaker.  I monitor playback with REW RTA so one can see what they are hearing.  You can see it is not rumble since it varies from record to record and is not constant frequency.  I have an ERATO LP of a Debussy performance i really enjoy but the noises it makes is enough to make you think you are losing your mind.  If only I had speakers that revealed this noise when I bought the record.  I could have taken it back and tried another copy.  There is no question the record is defective. One has no choice but to turn off the subwoofers and most of the time that is not an issue.

If any of you have REW I would like to hear about what you see if you use it while playing LPs.

I do not have many 45 rpm records but there is a great benefit to these when it comes to groove noise: they are uniformly quieter.  Not saying they are quiet since they are not.  Part of the analogue bargain ... You get far more coherent transients in exchange for noise you can hear.  Digital gives you noises that are more sub rosa but in time can be very annoying. 45 rpm disks always had a more immediate sound but now I see they are so much quieter in the low frequencies that one is tempted to get more of them.  Luckily there are few that I am interested in since they are expensive; justifiably expensive but I never bought audiophile records either.

Thanks, again, for the interest shown.  I will post some photos Monday and the weight of that counterweight piece.  I think all of us have something laying about from past tonearms that would do the trick.

My turntable work is inspired by Jimmy Cliff singing - you can make it if you really try ...
you succeed at last.  Assuming everyone knows what fills in the ellipse.

Take care,

[Robert Young]

Hi Rick,

I should have supplied a few more pics…at the other end of the string leading from the weight is a hook which attaches to the idler. The weight hangs below the chamfered and hollowed bolt…

[BotleyJoe]

For anyone who wants to make one of these you can get a similar cable adjuster from a bike shop and the weights, line and the hook things from a fishing tackle shop.

[JohnG]

Hi Rick
          You have certainly been inquisitive and pro active in your investigations.
I take it that when the TT has been worked on to the measure your one has, it is not too often a Tweak is anticipated to have such a impact.

I take it this is one the rarer moments when a Night / Day comparison revealed itself.

With your inquisitive mind, I am going to suggest that the Birch Ply Motor mount is considered to be replaced by a Piece of Panzerholz or Permali.
Either of these materials are capable of interfacing differently to the Standard Plywood, as the Compression of Ply's is increased by 100% over a Standard Ply.

This equates to a Material made form similar wood, having twice the weight per cubic metre.

The Link is a description of the Properties of P'holz that is from a different perspective and different author to the commonly seen ones. 

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html
 

[Tomcat1969]

For anyone who wants to make one of these you can get a similar cable adjuster from a bike shop and the weights, line and the hook things from a fishing tackle shop.

Exactly what I used when I did the mod. I'm back to the spring though.

[tabarddn]

''but the noises it makes is enough to make you think you are losing your mind.''

That's one of the reasons I went to a controlled DC motor driving the platter via a Mylar belt, substantial T/T noise reduction, & upgrade in sound performance.

Cheers Derek

[JohnG]

It is Win Win, One Quite affordable TT able to have Two Separate Drive Mechanisms.

One design has the intent to get the Best from the Idler Drive System.

The Other Design, to commence in the learning experience of how Bypassing the Idler Drive Mechanism and using a Belt Drive System can compare to the Idler Drive.
This Design will I am sure grow in popularity, as Two TT's for the Price of One,
will Surely become an attractive proposition.