VOTT and Front Horns Club

[calamean]

Hello dear Lenco Lovers,

I have been (mis)guided to this forum by Mickael aka Slap the Dada (I hope that the spelling is correct). He talked me into the Lenco realm and I tried to talked him in into high efficiency speakers. Of course he found no better ways to work with this kind of set up without risks by introducing it to some far away friends of his (40km from his house if I understood well : it is just enough to avoid the loud music coming from this system)...

More seriously : I am a VOTT addict, and I have a Lenco L75 to rebuild at home, as well as TD 124 which is coming back to life. I started my VOTT adventures with very esoteric pieces of equipment and it was not a good idea. I am now convinced that starting with a simple two voices set up all in Altec stuff is the easiest way to go. And this is a path you could follow easily because you have most of the speakers, drivers and horns needed!

From the bunch of things you have : I can see
- a pair of 421A Altec 15" speakers. These are speakers which are made for musical instrument.

As you can see from the diagrams : they have poor bass extension and roll off around 2kHz.

- a disparate pair of 416/515 like speaker of which one is a superb 416-8B. This is going to be a problem : because you need two identical speakers in your VOTT cabinets and of course speakers sharing the same speaker cones too... You usually use in VOTT's cabinet Altec 416 or 515 speakers. Most VOTT addicts will tell you that the best combination are with AlNiCo drivers like the 803, the 416A, 416-8A and 416-8B, and the 515, 515B, 515C and 5158LF. The difference between the 515 family and the 416 family? First efficiency : the 416 are about 3dB less efficient than the 515, but the 416 ted to do more BASS and this is a crucial factor because VOTTs do not have a great bass extension. With modern drivers : they tend to be HUGE LS3/5A... with a 65Hz at -3dB. Shameful isn't it for such big speakers. This one of the reason why you need to have the right combination of speakers.

At my place, in my small room I have a steady 40Hz at -3dB, but the cabinets are in the corners and I use the Altec 416-8B speakers. They are from my experiments : the best  combination with the VOTT cabinets for bass extension. At least you have one... You need now to find another one. Could you please also let us know about the reference written on the inside of you r 416-8B speaker cone. Original speakers cones are much better than chinese replacements....

- Now for the horns. I think that you may have a pair of 511 and pair of 811 horns. The 511 horns will be able to reproduce lower frequencies (from around 550Hz) than the 811 (from 800Hz), but the 511 horns will drop sooner in the upper frequencies than the 811 horns. So I would advise you to use the 811 horns to complete the 416-8B in the real VOTT cabinet using 416-8B speakers. This could be an easy way to have good VOTT starter's set up. By the way : what kind of crossover do you have with your stuff?

Could you also make some photos of the compression drivers. From what I see they are from the 80X Altec family drivers. It would be also very interesting to check which kind of diaphragms they have. For this : you need to remove the back plate very carefully and put all screws and piece of metals far away from the very powerful magnet of these compressions otherwise you might ruin your diaphragms... If you make me some photos I will certainly be able to tell you more about them.

The upper cabinets will not be of any use in your place : they are high bass/low medium cabinets... They are interesting in PA systems but in your HUGE and beautiful room : I am not sure they will be of any help.

Good luck with all of this and this message will not auto-destruct in ten seconds (like my first try to answer you did when the forum crashed as I was sending it),

François

P.S. : Pardon my French poor English...

[hatehifi]

Wowww Jean
Those are the real stuff!
Not jealous. Not jealous. Not jealous. Not jealous.
Really. Not jealous. Really.

er, me neither!!!!!!!!!!

[slabadabada]

...

More seriously : I am a VOTT addict, and I have a Lenco L75 to rebuild at home, …

Hi François thanks for heads up and welcome to LH  !

Lenco friends beware of him not only is he an addict he is even more so an evangelist, I wouldn't be surprised to see him popup at our next meet, and before you know it you will all want Votts too ;)

[jloveys]

Hi Francois and welcome to Lenco Heaven !  
It is great to have a VOTT addict on board and will be very helpful for me, a total novice with those beasts, to make them sing the best in the barn, pardon me, in our Heaven playground !
Of course the best would be if you come yourself and please do not hesitate to join us in Beauvechain to test the best VOTT arangement...
But for the moment let's try like this with your knowledge and my photos...

In total we have now 4 cabinets , two big Original VOTT's with the 421 A and 511B Horns. That is sure.
Now the two others were made by a local woodworker with original but newer Altec speakers and horns,
So far I opened only one of each cabinets and I am not sure of the exact model of the newer woofer (515 B ? ), as the Altec logo is missing and I have to dismantle the newer horn cabinet to see the exact model it is...
For the crossovers, I have no idea where they are located inside the VOTT cabinet...
I will go back to the barn wednesday and make all the photos you asked, opening the second set of cabinets.
Thanks for your input, it is exactly what I was looking for...

[calamean]

Hello Jean,

Thank you for your warm welcome and invitation... I need to visit Slap the Dada this summer, maybe that we will than find an opportunity to meet.

I've been thinking a bit more about your "case" and I think that you should keep the 421A in the VOTT's cabinet for now and change them immediately when you have found the missing 416-8B (you need to check the ref on the cone of your 416-8B)...

Try to discover the true nature of these compression drivers... using either phenolic or aluminium diaphragms in your case. I hope for you that they are aluminium ones (or even pascalithe).

Could you also try to make some photos of how the speakers cones and surrounds? Check also if the coil of the speakers are not rubbing. For this use both of your thumbs and press gently the speaker cone to feel/listen if there is any rattling/rubbing noises.

You can also measure the dcr (direct current resistor) with an ohmmeter plugged directly in the pin of each speakers to have an idea of their values and compare them with the original Altec specs...

Lots of nice things to do isn't it?

In the meantime I'm just playing with my new camera, so here is a photo of my wrecked listening room:
...
Simple setting with a Playstation I heavily modified, a chip amp on batteries, a linestage using 76 and a phono stage sharing some ideas with Loesch phonostage (FET>417A>6GK5) and finally a Corbeau n°1 with a Jelco SA-750D and a Shelter 501mkII. But things are going to change very soon (a brand new linestage using 12B4A, a much more improved version of the Loesch phonostage, and a new SE of STC 4033A amp (with Electra Print special output transformers...) delivering around 6W of shivering triode sound, a brand new tonearm (Ikeda IT-407 or FR64S or RS-A1) with a new ZYX Airy cartridge, and a Torlai retipped Zu Audio top grade cartridge).

P.S. : I had forgotten to describe my speakers... Altec 416-8B, Vitavox S2 or S3 drivers on CN157 or 8 cells horns and JBL 2405 tweeters...

[daiwok]

Francois,

Welcome to heaven !  I have lots of friends who are VOTT fans here in Hong Kong 

[jaspert]

Welcome Francois. I spy a TW Acustic Raven 1 turntable in your system. I used to own one too.

David,
That's an "Altec Disneyland". It brings back good memory

[jloveys]

Thanks Francois, very nice setup you have, you are most welcome to the barn, we have sleeping rooms !

For now I will start my Altec journey with some historical background : http://www.audioheritage.org/intro.htm

How could I have been such an ignorant not knowing that JBL=Altec Lansing, all things audio we have to give tribute to James B. Lansing and Rice & Kellogs...

Everything is on this very well documented site, here the A7 plans : http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1968-enclosure/page05.jpg

[hatehifi]

Hi Francois, welcome! I've got a Zu cartridge too (103R). Who is Torlai? Just found him on Google... Was your Zu broken?

[calamean]

Hi John,

I did ripped of the stylus of my wonderful Zu DL-103 Grade 2' (0.1%) with a foolish move... Torlai is an Italian nadel spezialist, a sound smith,  un tailleur de diamant. He does some very nice things and I am tempted to ask him to change the conical diamond of my Zu into a Micro-Ridge one with a bore cantilever.

Do you like your Zu DL-103R?


P.S. : I have the feeling that since I am here : we are moving more and more out of-topic from the Belgian Mini Meet... All my apologies.

[jloveys]

P.S. : I have the feeling that since I am here : we are moving more and more out of-topic from the Belgian Mini Meet... All my apologies.

No problem with drifting out of topic here, the meet has ended and this topic is welcome for all after-toughts
initiated during the meet...

[hatehifi]

We shorten this habit of

Hi John,


I did ripped of the stylus of my wonderful Zu DL-103 Grade 2' (0.1%) with a foolish move... Torlai is an Italian nadel spezialist, a sound smith,  un tailleur de diamant. He does some very nice things and I am tempted to ask him to change the conical diamond of my Zu into a Micro-Ridge one with a bore cantilever.

Do you like your Zu DL-103R?


P.S. : I have the feeling that since I am here : we are moving more and more out of-topic from the Belgian Mini Meet... All my apologies.

Hi Francois, we call, "...moving more and more...," off topic, or just 'OT' for short. It is quite all right.  

I love my Zu. I've heard other excellent cartridges (CA Outsider still impressive) but not any 'better'. Zu wanted to make another run of 103R but Denon said they had to purchase like 100+ and I think Zu's answer was a middle finger - those guys don't bow and grovel like Denon I assume expected. Mine is better than 0.3% just didn't qualify for the 0.1% from the run (were, are only three 0.1% 103R and seven like mine). I'm writing Roberto Torlai now...

So, back (sort of) OT VOTT, I spoke with vintage audio freind (he speaks only German), Frank yesterday and he suggested The Fisher 100 and some Marantz' (said they were used in R&D at JBL) and the Grundig NF2 (has to be 'updated' but the iron is fabulous). I also suggested a test with the Crayon CFA1-40 (6moons) my gut feeling says.

[calamean]

Francois,

Welcome to heaven !   I have lots of friends who are VOTT fans here in Hong Kong  

Hi David,

Thank you for your welcome!

This is pure Altec porn. It is absolutely obscene!!!

My turn to show my audio porn stuffs.... GNIARK GNIARK GNIARK...

I have a few more things at home like...

I'm sure you have seen these horns somewhere in your photos!

Very old Vitavox 8 cell horns... Some a bit dusty...


And my beautiful and lovingly cared Vitavox S2 drivers :

My S3...


I once had these things in my VOTTs along other more classical speakers :


Altec 515 vs ElectroVoice 15W...


Lonesome Altec 1" drivers...


There two other friends :


One pair of Altec 414-8B, 12" woofers... I also have some 414A and 414Z...

Very useful in la Petite Onken with original Guigue 1" horns and Altec 909-8A for example...


I am working some filters for friends using this :


And  this :

Quizzzz.... Do you know what are these horns and drivers?  


What is bothering most ... is that most of my friends practicing high efficiency speakers have much more stuff than I do.  

One thing I know for sure is that when you start playing around with speakers/tubes/records/turntables you cannot stop yourself to try things and your home becomes overcrowded with wired stuff... I have little experience in all these matters : but toying around with all these things which are part of history is immensely enjoyable.

If you want to start in something like that I can give you three advices :
1. Go and listen to various high efficiency set ups
2. Have a friend or even better some friends who already have a working high efficiency set up to help you choosing your components and making good choices for components and filters. (Keep simple at first : Altec with Altec and no messing around with Electro-Voice/Vitavox/JBL. Reproduce something which is known altogether working...).
3. Easiest way to do filters? Numerical stuff. This is not something I want to have at my home (I am a vinylholic). Just try simple first order and second order filters and check what you are doing with measurements (using a mic with a USB phantom power supply plugged in your computer and using ARTA or Room Equalizer Wizard for example)... Never trust fully your ears!

For the rest, well once you have started the first moments are extraordinary than you are in hell for a few months and one day : it starts working better and better... But you have lost your hairs, changed or lost your woman (I avoided this...), became an hermit mumbling all the time strange things about filters and f****ed speakers...

Good luck!

[calamean]

No problem with drifting out of topic here, the meet has ended and this topic is welcome for all after-toughts
initiated during the meet...

Great... I am (sometime) a lousy mouth... But I must admit I'm still having THE thrill when I see systems like yours popping/blossoming up in a such a beautiful room!

[calamean]

We shorten this habit of
Hi Francois, we call, "...moving more and more...," off topic, or just 'OT' for short. It is quite all right.  

I love my Zu. I've heard other excellent cartridges (CA Outsider still impressive) but not any 'better'. Zu wanted to make another run of 103R but Denon said they had to purchase like 100+ and I think Zu's answer was a middle finger - those guys don't bow and grovel like Denon I assume expected. Mine is better than 0.3% just didn't qualify for the 0.1% from the run (were, are only three 0.1% 103R and seven like mine). I'm writing Roberto Torlai now...

He does an awesome job. I heard some of his retipped Koetsu and it was far better than Van den Hull retipped one. (I'm not sure I'm going to make friends on this one...).

I miss my Zu... and changing the cantilever and diamond is going to make it another cartridge. I'm really impatient to listen to it.

What I like above all about the Zu is that it makes a standard DL-103 a jewel. It is, for my tastes, the move which make a DL-103 an equal to high ranked cartridges. This is jumping to your face when you are listening to an AT-33EV which is going to be perfect to reach for details and precision but which has not enough character or against a Shelter 501 mKII which has a warm medium but lack of precision... The Zu just combine both of the qualities of these two cartridges and avoid there defaults.

So, back (sort of) OT VOTT, I spoke with vintage audio freind (he speaks only German), Frank yesterday and he suggested The Fisher 100 and some Marantz' (said they were used in R&D at JBL) and the Grundig NF2 (has to be 'updated' but the iron is fabulous). I also suggested a test with the Crayon CFA1-40 (6moons) my gut feeling says.

In such a big room... Yes indeed a good push pull for the 15"/16" woofers might be a good solution for listening to loud music! But I'm sure lots of amplifiers will be working on this set up (even chip amps).

From my point of view : you need to have at one point in your system an old triode popping in the line of the signal. And yes old triodes rock!