Western Electric 15 a- your opinions

[Chris65]

And maybe introduce yourselves in the 'Introductions' thread.
Best wishes,
(another)Chris.

[Schmitz]

For a professional project manager WE 15A project is a very simple project.
The NASA-Apollo program for landing on the moon or moving a complete factory from one country to another are complex projects.
Equaled with those this here is like Kindergarten projects.

[jsullerot]

Have you heard the permanent magnet versions and do they sound the same? If so, it could be a much simpler solution for home use.

Hi,

As Joe said, main quality of we555 is its filed coil magnet.

As far as I know from listening and experiments, sound is very close between alnico and field coil as long as you use cheap regulated power supply.
We had listening tests with english WE 30150 driver ( cross magnet shape) with ALE diaphragm

But...

 With proper tungar PSU, sound of WE555 is FAR better, more details, crisp, cleaner, clearer...

My opinion is that's why field coil driver are always more expensive than permanent magnet clones.
There is always ( unfortunately) a good reason...

The cool thing with FC drivers and speakers is that you can 'tune' them with the power supply. You cannot obviously do that With permanent magnet drivers...

Julien

[tungar]

Chris and Chris,

Thanks for the advice, I've updated my profile. I live in an apartment in New York City so space is a real issue for me. I've been into vintage audio for a few years now and really like Western Electric. The best part is my kids, who are 2 and 3.5 like listening to music more than watching TV! Currently I'm trying to collect parts for a set of speakers. In previous years I got the preamp, phono and turntable thing sorted out. I'm working on listing my system in the "systems" area so people have an idea of what the setup is. It's one of my favorite parts of this site, to see other real systems. I wish I lived in Europe to see/hear some of the systems you guys have at the various shows. It would be great to hear the Mirrophonic or 15A setup properly some day.

Best,
Warun

[Bohun]

Julien: What type of PSU tuning are you referring to?  Is it mainly around the voltage (6.9V as suggested by Aldo) or Type of capacitors or serial vs dedicated PSU?

As an aide, I was able to determine that my Tungar PSU will deliver 14V and/or 24V, which lends itself quite nicely to 555s in series.   It also looks like Capacitor will have to be replaced.  Thanks again for the excellent info on type of caps etc.

Peter

[tungar]

But...

 With proper tungar PSU, sound of WE555 is FAR better, more details, crisp, cleaner, clearer...

My opinion is that's why field coil driver are always more expensive than permanent magnet clones.

Julien thanks for the insights. Looks like Joe, you and others I've talked to who have heard both are in agreement that the field coil 555 has the potential to be much better than the Alnico version. People also agree that the power supply makes a big difference. This research has convinced me to go the 555 field coil road.

I read about power supplies earlier in this thread and didn't really understand what people were saying about having coils for chokes instead or caps, but I did see that most are saying tungar is the way to go. Is there any other guidance on this? For example are the vintage Motiograph, RCA etc. tungars what's needed or should one build a new tungar based power supply? Is one more stable or safer etc.

Best,
Warun

[J-ROB]

most are saying tungar is the way to go

Since your screen name is "tungar," i don't see how you have much choice.

[soundlistening]

Tungar,

The test that Julien is refering to was done at the last ETF meeting 2011 that took place in France.
This was a setup put in place by Julien and André, Julien, André and I share a lot about WE systems etc...
A single 15a was run full range no tweeter no bass.
The front end was a Garrard 401, Schick arm, Ortofon SPU 25, Pultec phono, WE 124 amps and tungar PS for the 555.
The drivers were WE555 original, WE555 with Ale, the 30150 (with Ale), a French Alnico 555 (forgot the ref) and finally the LM Audio Chinese replica.
Sound wise they came in that order, original and ALE close, LM way behind. A very distinct advanatge for the WE555 be it the original diaphragm or the ALe one.
The same drivers were then run in a three way system bass and 597a tweeter. Here the differences were not as great, although my bet is that the differences will be evident when listening for longer, vary the music, etc...

If I were you I would leave the Tungar for a later stage. There are many other matters to address, get the horn(s), bass solution, drivers, tweeter, crossover, cables, amps, preamp, phono and TT. Trust me these all have to be top notch. The answer is not just "pop a WE horn with a 555 and bingo" The flexibility of a solid state PS or selenium helps. I used a Selenium PS when "setting up". I then passed it to a freind (Buzato on this form) and he is using it to arrange his 15a setup. But when it comes to Tunar you need to decide on how many drivers you will be using it for, what cabling (series or parellel). This will influence amperage needed as well as the output voltage. 555's are 7v, 597a 7v, 4181 24volts...series 555 with 597 in stero is 28v...and so on. The way you cable changes the sound also!

Regarding the test using a Tungar with no caps this is an experiment that is being done by André and me. He will be using on his 15a system and me on my 16a. We have ordered swinging chokes 2h for nominal 4a. We are driving 555, 4181 and 597's so quite some energy needed. But if you take the Tungar route (and as Joe puts it "Since your screen name is "tungar," i don't see how you have much choice."...) I would strongly suggest that you get a Motiograph tungar and take it from there. Samller units can be made and I had one. But I ran into a wall when I wanted to drive my 4181...The gentlman who started this very thread had Aldo make him a Tungar with the tranformers and choke from that unit...(small world here!). But...part of it is experimenting and you may perhaps benefit  from 1st getting a "good" sound with known setup standards. Ttaht could take  you a while...

A word on setting up: It takes time patience and sometimes money.

Somebody asked if the Tungar was safe for children? Well a Tungar does get hot but no more than a 211 amp!!.
I would not have a Tungar with young kids unless I could place it well out of reach. But young kids do have imagination....and the glowing bulbs of the Tungar could attract that!!!

All fun...
Tim

[audioanthology]

Chris and Chris,

Thanks for the advice, I've updated my profile. I live in an apartment in New York City so space is a real issue for me. I've been into vintage audio for a few years now and really like Western Electric. The best part is my kids, who are 2 and 3.5 like listening to music more than watching TV! Currently I'm trying to collect parts for a set of speakers. In previous years I got the preamp, phono and turntable thing sorted out. I'm working on listing my system in the "systems" area so people have an idea of what the setup is. It's one of my favorite parts of this site, to see other real systems. I wish I lived in Europe to see/hear some of the systems you guys have at the various shows. It would be great to hear the Mirrophonic or 15A setup properly some day.

Best,
Warun

Hey Warun , i realize now only that you are tungar ( note: he has some of my electronics)

you don't need to travel to Europe.
you may contact Jonathan aka toneimports.com (he lives few miles from you) and listen to one of my 15A (he has pair but using 1 for space reasons) with replica 597a , jensen M20 etc .
I hope Jonathan will not be upset because writing about him here...btw i don't know if he will allow visitors or not

I have also installed for Vu  2 stereo 15a replica system in DC. both using Motiograph tungars

Aldo

[audioanthology]

Julien thanks for the insights. Looks like Joe, you and others I've talked to who have heard both are in agreement that the field coil 555 has the potential to be much better than the Alnico version. People also agree that the power supply makes a big difference. This research has convinced me to go the 555 field coil road.

I read about power supplies earlier in this thread and didn't really understand what people were saying about having coils for chokes instead or caps, but I did see that most are saying tungar is the way to go. Is there any other guidance on this? For example are the vintage Motiograph, RCA etc. tungars what's needed or should one build a new tungar based power supply? Is one more stable or safer etc.

Best,
Warun

a properly cage protected tungar psu is less dangerous than any tube amp or preamp . the tungar psu handles low voltage currents , so no electrical shock risk unless the input AC.

For european i usually don't suggest to use Motiograph or Rca tungar because i found that they are quite noisy, mechanical noise from transformers : i believe because they are rated at 60hz AC mains . the use of a variac also has big influence on the sound, better to avoid it. So for Europeans better to make a tungar psu using 220V 50Hz rated transformers. the other backdraft of Motiograph and RCA tungar is that they are quite big. I usually make tungar psu  smaller, to fit more lifesize audio systems. I also use a rotative style rheostat instead than the sliding type of Motio and RCA  because make the voltage adjustment easier : by placing a needle type  DC voltmeter on the output you can easily check-adjust the 555 voltage with the knob, correcting AC mains variations etc .
so definitively i make them easier to use from a non expert...almost troublefree

for americans the Motio or Rca are OK. just be sure that the transformers are working and replace the cap with 4000mF good quality vintage caps.

tungar psu are about all the same stuff, no big difference

here is a resume through ebay

Motiograph SE7520
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTIOGRAPH-MA-7505-PAIR-SE-7520-TUNGAR-POWER-SUPPLY-PREAMP-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-/290723884064?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43b07e6c20

this puts out 24V max , so it's ok also if you want to use 4181 woofers .

Motiograph SE7570
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Motiograph-Tungar-Power-Supply-Pair-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-/320919835536?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab8501390

never used this but seems fine if you need to power just a pair 555 . the output seems to be 9V 4A
it doesn't uses tungar bulbs but mercury vapour rectifiers ( i don't remember the code) which have 4 prong type socket instead than screw. It may appear to someone somewhat less "scary" than a tungar. I don't know if it sound same or worst than a tungar, it seems a good choice anyway

RCA MI 1500
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MI-1500-for-RCA-Western-Electric-Field-Speaker-Driver-/180899642608?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a1e757cf0

this is OK for pair 555 +pair 597a , because 15V 7.5A

-------------------------------------------

again about safety and kids...

the Motiograph and RCA are fully caged so no problem. the only problem is that they are quite big

for myself i use the WE 7351 cage with tungar psu made by me inside. as you can see in this (bad ) picture is quite smaller than the Motiograph cage



if you have a tall shelf or rack tower... this is another solution :  open frame but quite small. if placed quite high on the shelf , far from kids hands it's ok and not bulky






Then , of course, there are various WE made tungar psu. but they are expensive


Aldo

[jsullerot]

Julien: What type of PSU tuning are you referring to?  Is it mainly around the voltage (6.9V as suggested by Aldo) or Type of capacitors or serial vs dedicated PSU?

Hi,

Well, this is a 'secret' !! 

It is not about voltage. It does not change much the sound (as long as you are 'around' the spec).
It is probably not much about type of caps even if this should have influence.
This is really about PSU topology.

As Tim said, some tests with only chokes have been done, with no caps.
Some s tests with 3-phase rectification have been done with great results as there is almost no hum at output...

We have been told that some Japanese people have had GREAT improvement using some new top components from 'electrical car business' (fast diodes for charging electric cars...) .
I do not know much about that for the moment.

But as Tim said, first thing is to set system up with good parts, and then tune it as you like with equipment you can have or can imagine.
 
The important point seems to be that field coil drivers as WE555 have a large improvement margin due to PSU.

Funny to know that new major improvements have been done only in the beginning of year 2012, with drivers / horns from late 20's!!!

Julien

[autobayer]

Warun.
Thanks.
You are very fortunate, my friend, to be able to collect these parts and prepare for some real take-off in sound.
And your kids are fortunate, too, to have such a father 
Best wishes
Chris

Chris and Chris,

Thanks for the advice, I've updated my profile. I live in an apartment in New York City so space is a real issue for me. I've been into vintage audio for a few years now and really like Western Electric. The best part is my kids, who are 2 and 3.5 like listening to music more than watching TV! Currently I'm trying to collect parts for a set of speakers. In previous years I got the preamp, phono and turntable thing sorted out. I'm working on listing my system in the "systems" area so people have an idea of what the setup is. It's one of my favorite parts of this site, to see other real systems. I wish I lived in Europe to see/hear some of the systems you guys have at the various shows. It would be great to hear the Mirrophonic or 15A setup properly some day.

Best,
Warun

[J-ROB]

The best part is my kids, who are 2 and 3.5 like listening to music more than watching TV!

At that age, my son (who is now 15) heard blues and R&B 18 hours a day on my big Altec system.

Now his favorite music is doo wop and vocal harmony, Guitar Slim, Johnny Guitar Watson, T-Bone Walker...exactly the artists and genres he heard daily back in Texas.

He found the stuff on YouTube himself and was surprised I knew all of the players.

I showed him my box of CDs from the time and they were all in there. He took over my old CD collection, asks for more constantly, and wants me to dig out my more obscure vinyl.

I played a Big Maybelle song he recommended at Munich show, introduced with the line:

 "This selection was recommended by my 15 year old son, who appears destined to become like his dad...excellent musical taste and no job." 

When he starts asking about audio gear, then I will really start to worry.

[campoli]

Tungar,
The drivers were WE555 original, WE555 with Ale, the 30150 (with Ale), a French Alnico 555 (forgot the ref) and finally the LM Audio Chinese replica.
Sound wise they came in that order, original and ALE close, LM way behind. A very distinct advanatge for the WE555 be it the original diaphragm or the ALe one.






The LM 555  at ETF 2011 was a brand new one. Compare a well played pair to original WE 555 you'll get more reliable impressions!

Campoli

[J-ROB]

As a reality check, has anyone tried running a 555 off of a BATTERY?

A 12.6v battery can be used with a voltage regulator, current regulator, low DCR choke, or diode string to get down to ~7V.

A car battery and a big old rheostat seems like the simplest old school 1930s solution.

Battery into a choke should intrigue the choke supply hipsters.

Charge controllers are available.

Why wouldn't that sound good? Unless, perhaps, the 555 does not want clean and flat DC...a definite possibility.


I'm especially interested in the notion of current regulated supplies. Bought a modern lab supply version on ebay last week to run some Jensens. I can switch between voltage regulated and current regulated.

Who knows...maybe there is a difference?

MJ has been talking to some of the old WE heads in Japan about this thread and tungar preference. Oddly, even though this is a very conservative crowd for factory WE setups, they seemed to think it was a matter of preference and there were good and bad supplies using all rectifier technologies. I'd bet that many of them are using the original tungsten argon supplies while saying that, however...