Stanton LZS and Pickering XLZ

[ludwignut]

Does anyone have a Stanton LZS or a Pickering XLZ that they would like to sell?

Rob

[richard]

No!

[rfgumby]

Aw c'mon Richard.  You're being too hard on Rob.  Can't you just send one?  Surely you have plenty of everything by now...

[richard]

Aw c'mon Richard.  You're being too hard on Rob.  Can't you just send one?  Surely you have plenty of everything by now

:

Gimme a break, Scott, for crying out loud. I was making an effort to turn over a new leaf and write short posts. In the future, I shall grunt.

I think that Rob's got the right idea because I think that I know where his head is at (Rob's already bought needles from me). But, alas, we're in a bind here. As we've seen, the formerly-large cartridge makers (Ortofon excepted) have dropped their best models along with support for them in the form of replacement styli.    What a bummer!

I'm not sure that I've even got enough needles for myself for these bodies. However, Rob may still be in luck, as I've seen the cartridges offered by Vickers in the UK ("Pickering of UK"). So, Rob: that's your source if you want a new one, providing that they still have any. As always, the practicality of a purchase like this is governed by the replacement stylus path. For myself, I suspect that if these become my own "standard" cartridge, I'll be looking at Expert Stylus for future re-tips. The highest-priced version in both brands remained in production, with their needles. And these were the versions that were calibrated. As I've mentioned earlier, calibration does not mean "better." It was just two or three hand-entered reference specs for the benefit of cutting engineers. But it had a lot of "street cred" with audiophiles and proved good for sales. Alas, when Stanton changed hands, these seemed to have been among the first products to be dropped.

Stanton had boxed themselves into a corner by setting a reasonable price for these products. If they'd sold the cartridges for $700 each, they'd have had the proper "audiophile mystique," flying off the shelves of the audio salons. Perhaps it would have helped even more if they'd had solid carved onyx bodies, pampered in wooden boxes lined with yakk fur.

I did pick up a three of the low-impedance elliptical styli while back. They look "shopworn," so I'd have to examine them to see if they show any wear. I'd be willing to part with one, as I'm already stocked (stoked) with these. I did listen to one of my .2 x .7s a while back in a low-impedance body, and it sounded fantastic. The appearance of these styli as well as my ability to purchase them all from the same seller is a puzzle. The guy who sold them to me bought them from the estate of a dentist, who also had many other needles (

And it would seem very strange, indeed, for someone to have worn out three identical styli. I mean, these needles were used with a version of the cartridge that was dropped fairly soon by Stanton (they test marketed additional variants in both brands, and the .2 x .7 elliptical was one or two of them). So, the fact that a Midwestern dentist had three of these styli in original boxes, all with cantilevers that look quite used, has been puzzling indeed. I mean, as far as I knew, these particular needles weren't common: you just about had to know about them, somehow, yourself. Rob, if you want, I'll check them under the microscope. Bodies turn up on eBay from time-to-time. For myself, I had bought a few new needles a long time ago, and a few more, expensively, on eBay. I figure that I've got all the needles that I'll ever find.

I have for sale a few of the original review brochures for the 981LZS. These are really interesting. The brochures are large-sized, containing a number of reviews from the world audio press about these cartridges, all translated into English. What I found illuminating in them was not only what they said about this cartridge, but also the different national methods and criteria in how hi-fi products are evaluated.  I also have a few similar brochures for the 881S. All the models that remained in production in both brands that used rare-earth moving magnets had Stereohedron parabolic styli, replaced later by more of a "line contact" shape as the Stereohedron II. The surprise for me, however, in listening to mine, is how good the standard elliptical needle for this sounds: that's what I didn't expect. Because I study these things, for myself, I have the ellipticals as well as both parabolic versions.

Note that the needles for these low-impedance bodies are all very high compliance around 28 or so, so arm matching should be considered carefully. When I tried my own, it was in a Weathers low-mass, viscous-damped arm that I modified slightly.

[rfgumby]

Oops.  Sorry Richard.  I didn't know you had started being succinct. 
Besides, we all know you can't have too many good cartridges.  My stuff will be available on the open market
one day when I pass on.  Until then you'll have to be satisfied being the one with the most encyclopedic knowledge of cartridge and styli that I've come across.  Quite a cross to bear...

By the way, you don't have any LZS or XLZ paying around that you want to sell, do you?   

[Wout]

Rob, you can still buy the Pickering XLZ 7500 body from vickers UK. If you go for the "Convert your XSV or XSP to XLZ technology" you'll get the body only. They don't have the D7500S stylus anymore, nor the D5000.

I've been on the hunt for a stylus for quite some time now and there're very few options:

• Buy an original D7500 or D5000 at stereoneedles.com (expensive)
  
• Go for an elliptical D3001E from kabusa.com. According to my Pickering leaflet it has the same compliance of 30. Might be a good replacement (Richard?).
  
• Get a JICO stylus. Not sure about this one, if you look at lpgear.com you'll see all Jico styli in the SmCo group are the same price. If you look at Jico's site, they only sell  a replacement for the 881, an elliptical and a Shibata. My guess is that LPgear sells the same 881s stylus for the whole group. Richard states that a 881S isn't really a good match for a 980/981/XLZ7500. Btw: the elliptical is cheaper at lpgear than at Jico, go figure.
  
• For me still the unknown one: the D4500Q (quadrahedral). This one was recommended to me by someone who ought to know but information on the internet is scarce and contradicting. Maybe Richard can shed a light on this one. Styli.co.nz sells the originals. There're also "original" Pfanstiehls available, the 608-DQX. Not to be confused with the generic Pfanstiehl 4608-DQX.

[Carl]

I don't think Vickers have got any XLZ's left....

[Carl]

Wout, I've had a couple of XEV3001e in the drawer for many years, its related to the XSV and XLZ carts. Vickers always told me that for this cart, the D7500 stylus would be the best upgrade over the D3001e stylus. This suggests to me that a D3001e would work in XLZ body but it would be a bit of a downgrade.

In the end I bought a Pfanstiehl needle for my XEV for very little money, a 0.4x0.7ml eliptical (versus the original D3001e 0.3x0.7ml) and its fine. I can't tell you if it sounds close to the original because its 20 years ago since I heard the original.

[richard]

First off is the issue of whether you'll be able to hear any benefit from upgrading needles in this group. However, I am partial to Stanton's
Stereohedron parabolics, although other parabolics may be as good. In the past, Stanton made most of their own tips. All of the cartridges in this range are excellent. The question is whether you'll be able to benefit from improved resolution of the music that you enjoy. But if you're listening to an elliptical in this product range right now, you'll probably find that upgrading to a parabolic will be to your liking.

I agree with the quote from Vickers. What we're mainly talking about here is the low-impedance models, so I'll focus on that. My advice is to buy a used cartridge body with its used needle and send the needle off to Expert Stylus for a re-tip. The Hodgsons have a choice of superb advanced tip shapes. Don't play around with solvents when cleaning the needle; it's possible that the fumes will damage the delicate elastomers in the stylus suspension, and this is something that the Hodgsons cannot help with.

Regarding substitutions for the low-impedance bodies, these should be reliable (double check my numbering as I'm winging this): 980, 981, The styli for the Pick Lz models, 5000. That's it! The 3000 may work OK, slightly lower compliance, not a big deal. Don't mess with any other needles. I don't trust a needle seller who claims otherwise. And unfortunately, the Stanton company (in Florida) suggested an incorrect substitution themselves after they stopped offering the proper needles for the low-impedance bodies.

Wout, thanks for the chemical shorthand: "SmCo group" it is!
As I've mentioned in the past, don't substitute needles within this group if you want the right balance. With the aftermarket styli, it's important that the needle manufacturer understands that he can't just make them all the same way; there are subtle differences that I never got into, such as perhaps differences in magnet positions within the cantilevers. I'd trust an aftermarket needle for an 881 or a 3000 before I'd trust one claimed to be proper for the Pickering LZ, 5000, or Stanton 981 (either version). The reason is simple: the first ones were "established" technology; the newer ones never grabbed a decent hold on the market. The quadraphonic bodies aren't equalivalent to the low-impedance bodies, so their needles aren't either. Yes: they'll work and the tips will be fine for stereo records. But I doubt that you'll get proper balance. There were some aftermarket needles for the quads at one point that may or may not have been good. I bought one, but haven't tried it yet.

This is a fascinating cartridge concept that Walter Stanton thought up himself. I think of it as a "moving coil turned inside-out." Load matching is especially easy with these cartridges, and you can use very long cable runs without problems. In fact, I used a 12 foot run between the arm and the head amp, plus the arm's cabling, which is very high capacitance.

Scott, the only things that I have for sale right now are one nice needle set for the Stanton 500/Pickering
V15; Mono LP and 78RPM. Also, one 78 stylus for the Stanton 680/681/Pickering XV15. These are the real deal: no fooling around. As in the past, I want these to go to good Lenco homes, where all the ones I sold earlier reside. See the for-sale section.

[richard]

Carl wrote,

"In the end I bought a Pfanstiehl needle for my XEV for very little money, a 0.4x0.7ml eliptical (versus the original D3001e 0.3x0.7ml) and its fine"

Carl, you caught my attention. I've never known of any elliptical in this series of these dimensions. Are you sure? All the samarium-cobalt ellipticals in both brands I have specs for were.2 x .7s. In fact, if I could get my hands on a .4 x .7 for any of these bodies, I'd be very happy.

The .3 x .7 was a standard size for the better ellipticals in the Pickering XV15 models. .4 x .7 was used for the lower versions (heavier trackers) for the Pickeriing XV15s, the Pickering V15s, and Stanton 680 and 681s. The only model in my experience that it was ever offered for in a light-tracking suspension was the Pickering "Series IV," "Phase IV," etc., models.

Was this a genuine Pickering stylus, or a Pfanstiehl imitation? Again, if it were Pfanstiehl's own, this would be against the mold. Their "generic styli" didn't tend to duplicate the better original products. For the better magnetics, they purchased the manufacturers' originals in bulk and re-packed them in Pfanstiehl boxes which were printed to indicate that they were "A product of Pickering and Company," for example. They made their own needles for virtually all the ceramic range and for magnetics in cases where the original manufacturer was either out-of-business or had stopped providing their own styli. An example of this was in the case of the first Pickering stereo cartridges, which were no longer supported with styli from Pickering, but were with Pfanstiehl imitations. There were cases, such as this one, where an aftermarket manufacturer could make a stylus that was as good as the original. In fact, I have had a few imitations that were better than the originals. Instances like this last one have been very rare, indeed.

So, please let me know.

[richard]

Wout, I'm sorry: I missed your earliier question:

For me still the unknown one: the D4500Q (quadrahedral). This one was recommended to me by someone who ought to know but information on the internet is scarce and contradicting. Maybe Richard can shed a light on this one. Styli.co.nz sells the originals. There're also "original" Pfanstiehls available, the 608-DQX. Not to be confused with the generic Pfanstiehl 4608-DQX.

I have one or two needles of this type in my needle cabinet. As with so many things, I haven't tried them yet. One is an obscure old American aftermarket that is probably assembled with Japanese innards. I recall that there were four or five quad styli from Stanton. I recall two in Stanton and Three in Pickering (or vice versa). One was dropped or replaced early; probably a minor revision for some reason. The offerings differed in tracking force, so, in each brand something like one for 1.5 gram maximum, and one for 3 gram maximum. We should reflect on the fact that quadraphonic sound was intended to be a popular medium, so it was intended for "popular-priced" equipment as well as high-quality audiohpile stuff. The Shibata tip shape was the key to the super-duper version that used a radio signal for the rear channels (I can't ever keep the designations straight in my mind: XQ, QX, LSMFT, etc.; there were three competing systems, weren't there?). "Quadrahedral" was Stanton's tradmark for their own quadraphonic tip (remember that Stanton was actually able to manufacture their own diamond tips at the time).

Shibata's needle is able to resolve extremely high frequencies in the groove, balanced with a fair degree of gentleness to the groove. This is as opposed to RCA's intended popular video process using a pressed record, wherein the recording was quickly trashed by the needle. So, Dr. Shibata's work was cut out for him.

Stanton's Quadrahedral tip was their own version, probably a simpler design, that also provided an excellent balance between sonic capability with gentleness to the groove. I'm sobered by the knowledge that there's really no perfect stylus when it comes to record wear, but there are different degrees of it: some are really good.

So, in short, I'd expect the Quadrahedrals to be fine, and very similar in performance to the Stereohedrons or other parabolics: worth a try, indeed. As far as good matches, I'd expect these styli to be compatible with the Stanton 881 and the Pickering 4000. And, of course, with their intended quad bodies.

Regarding the Pfanstiehls, do you happen to know the date of these aftermarket styli? The Pfanstiehl "generic" needl isn't in the Pfanstiehl book that I usually grab. The 608DQX number sounds like a repacked Stanton or Pickering original stylus to me. The 4-number one would be their own aftermarket knockoff, but as I mentioned in another post, Pfanstiehl usually knew when it didn't pay to try to duplicate the precision of the "real thing." I can't imagine that Pfanstiehl had the ability to align a high-frequency tip with the required precision, although I have sometimes respected their quality.

What clouds all this is that the Pfanstiehl Chemical Company finally decided to get out of hi-fi, and sold the whole needle business to an electronics parts outfit halfway across Illinois. At that point in time, all knowledge of the brand is cloudy. I don't know of any catalogs from them, and their Web presence just about doesn't exist. So, I have no idea what they're up to, except that Brian has sent me four of their needles for the GE VR-IIs for me to re-manufacture. Two of them look decent; the other two look like they're assembled from floor scrapings by people who scrape floors.

Bottom line, here, is that the original Stanton quad products are worth using for stereo, and are probably excellent. Ironically, the Pfanstiehls are probably excellent, too, as far as the actual tips are concerned, and are probably genuine Shibatas. The reason that I say this is simple: it's so incredibly difficult for a needle to track the carrier wave in those "real" quad grooves that anything that's "iffy" won't work at all! But, of course, the ability of the tip to keep in the groove (at, what is it, 40,000 Hz?) doesn't tell the whole story about the quality of how the entire stylus assembly was put together. But if the price is right, and you can afford it, it may be worth it. Steinfeldco does not provide any guarantees. Don't sue me, OK?

[Wout]

Carl: thanks for the info.

As always, thank you Richard. You must be getting tired of it all.

This is what I was able to dig up concerning the Pfanstiehl styli (may not be accurate):

Pfanstiehl
608-DEZ: D5000
608-DQX: D4500Q   D4500S?
608-DEX: D4000   D4000SP?
608-DEV: D3000
608-DEQ: D2400Q
608-DQ:  D2000Q

825-DEV: D81S D81SII
825-D3E: D827(78rpm)

I found in several places that without the 4 prefix, it should be a repacked but original stylus. With the 4 prefix, it's a "generic" Pfanstiehl needle. The generic usually don't have the same tip size as the originals.

Carl probably bought the 4608-DEX which is a .4 x .7 elliptical generic Pfanstiehl.

I also found other aftermarket Styli (just for future reference):

Tonar
1557: D3500E
1555: D4000
1610: D4000SP
1172: D4500Q
1613: D4500S
1556: D5000
1528: D7500
1170: D2000Q
805DE: D81S
1352: D98S

Zafira
6400.6: D2000, D2400, D4500Q
6747: D81S
6740.5: D81E
6740.4: D88S, D98S
6740.6: E8S, E9S (original)

Problem with these aftermarket styli is, you never know what you get.

I'm also trying to make up a list with models from both brands just to keep my head straight:

XLZ-7500S (D7500S) = 980/981LZS (D98S)
XLZ-4500S (D4500S) = 885LZS (D88S?)
XLZ-3500E (D3500E) = 785LZE (D78E?)

XSV-5000 (D5000) = 980/981HZS (D98S)
XSV-4000 (D4000) = 880/881S (D81S)
XEV-3001E (D3001E) = ?

Now this D88S might be interesting because there's still a source who claims to sell the original. I've send him an email to check.
Its Pickering equivalent is also available here, albeit a little expensive.
(albeit? Where did I pick up that word? I don't even know how to pronounce it  )

Richard said:

Wout, thanks for the chemical shorthand: "SmCo group" it is!

Not my invention, I just quoted the Pickering leaflet.




ps: Richard, see you in court.

[Carl]

yes it was a 4608-DEX 0.4x0.7ml eliptical.

reviewing my previous research on the subject captured here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=158.0
My D3001e original was a 0.2x0.7ml eliptical as Richard suggests.

Also in answer to Wout, my previous research deduced Pickering D3001e = Pickering D22e

[GP49]

Zafira
6400.6: D2000, D2400, D4500Q
6747: D81S
6740.5: D81E
6740.4: D88S, D98S
6740.6: E8S, E9S (original)

Problem with these aftermarket styli is, you never know what you get.

DEFINITELY the case with Zafira...at least when they supplied the electronics jobber where I used to get my parts and supplies.  They had a nice-looking color catalog but the "nice" ended there.  The catalog may have listed multiple styli for the same cartridge body and you might think this meant there were heavy and light tracking variants, etc.  When the styli would arrive, it would turn out they were the same thing except for the color of the plastic grip. 

Pfanstiehl had dull-looking, cluttered catalogs that could be difficult to navigate for some store counterpersons but for those who were accustomed, they provided a lot of information and you could usually be quite certain that if you ordered something, that was what you'd get. 

And then there was Empire, once they became an aftermarket stylus company.  You never really knew what you'd get from them, either.  Our store stocked a lot of Empire replacement styli.  They were a high-profit item and I trained the sales staff on how to look up a customer's stylus and select the correct one.  They were big on selling "upgrades" which carried a high list price but a cost which was just pennies more than the basic-level stylus.  As one might deduce, the "upgrade" didn't cost much more because it really wasn't much (if any) of an upgrade.  Empire's people also seemed prone to making mistakes on special orders. One customer came in to get a stylus for his Shure V15 Type IV.  He didn't want to pay the price for a genuine Shure, and wanted an aftermarket replacement.  We generally did not stock the Empire replacements for high-priced cartridges such as the Shure V15 series, the Pickering XSV and the Stanton 880/881 (and we were a Stanton dealer anyway so we discouraged such substitution on Stantons).  So we ordered the Empire replacement for the Shure V15 Type IV.  What came (and what DID appear in their catalog but under another number) was a genuine Shure stylus, repackaged for sale under an Empire part number...and at the cost of the Empire aftermarket replacement.  I knew this was wrong.  So I called Empire back and ordered ANOTHER one.  This second one WAS the Empire aftermarket copycat version.  I delivered that to the customer and bought the genuine Shure from the store, at cost (for the copycat version, which is what they charged us for, both times!), for a Shure V15 Type IV body that I had at home.

Such a deal.

The downside of the deal: I found I don't like the Shure V15 Type IV.  I've run it against various Stantons from the basic 500E to the 981HZS; Grados; and Decca Londons.  Always, the Shure has come back off in minutes.  Literally.  Indeed, I find that I like the earlier model V15 Type III a lot better.

[richard]

Yes,  Wout: Burning out.

Zafira bought an American aftermarket stylus company in Florida, arriving rather late in the USA. I have that slick color catalog GP mentioned. It's one of the worst needle books I've ever seen. Very difficult to use in all respects. It's almost impossible to see the numbers because they're printed in black on a dark blue background on shiny paper. No specifications are provided and an arcane numbering system is used with no hint of what the product actually is.

I bought exactly one Zafira stylus, an inexpensive one for a ceramic cartridge from Al Lasher's Electronics, in Berkeley. The shop owner had decided to replace a decent product line with Zafira. The workmanship of this needle was so awful that I had to rebuild it by "kitbashing" parts together from the old and new needles in order to make a needle that would work for the customer. I later tried to reason with the shop owner to get her to return to a brand of good needles. I tried, to no avail, to get her to understand that selling junk wouldn't be good for business, but she was intransigent, even after I said that I wouldn't buy her lousy needles.

Empire was bought by Transatlantic Electronics (TAE) of New York. TAE was an aftermarket stylus manufacturer with a catalog and numbering system that was almost as bad as Zafira's. These aftermarket catalogs were expensive to produce because of the very high labor costs neccessary in order to figure out what the original stylus characteristics actually were, and to provide precise cross references. Most audiophiles have no idea how complicated this business was: there were thousands of different styli. It was even more expensive when a company provided exact replacements for the original stylus specifications. Vigorous proofreading was an additional expense. Of course, making up a catalog the right way was costly, and so a company that did it properly (and provided proper replacement needles) had to charge more for their products to cover the expense. It was much more profitable to use a "one-size-fits all approach. So, Zafira's regional product rep was able to scoop up dealers with higher markups for his shoddy wares.

In the case of "Empire," TAE simply made up new fancy plastic hang-boxes and continued to sell all their TAE aftermarket products under the Empire name, just re-designing their catalogs using the same TAE numbers. Now, when one bought a stylus for an Empire cartridge, already insanely complicated due to their dizzying private-label numbering, did the customer get original Empire quality or did they get a TAE fake? (Only the English family knew.)

TAE was at least the third owner of the Empire brand and had already bought Walco, being at least the fourth owner of Walco. There's more; believe me there's more.

An interesting sidelight: at least for some products, TAE actually could turn out decent needles. I had a conversation with the TAE patriarch. He allowed that his products weren't the highest quality, and I had to tell him that his needles really weren't as bad as he said they were.

Now, you guys: you see how bloody complicated this needle business is? It's like a soap opera.

Oh, hell: what was the subject, anyway?

(c) 2009 Richard Steinfeld