Stanton LZS and Pickering XLZ

[ludwignut]

Ok,All this information is mind boggling.I just ordered a XLZ body from Vickers and was able to pick up a new old stock PLZ pre amp on E-BAY for $20.50 . I scored on that one.Do I use the PLZ amp in conjunction with my pre amp?ANd hands down,what is the best stylus that I can get that is available in a few sentences? Richard? I would be interested in what you have to offer.

Thanks,

Rob

[richard]

First, my Ludwignut, I don't have any of these styli that I'm willing to part with.

As far as qualilty goes, I'd say that you'll be pleased with any Stereohedron that goes with the body (see Wout's list, and I think that I've already mentioned it earlier.). I mean, any Stereohedron styli that were originally made to go with the low impedance bodies. Also, the Pickering 5000 may be a good substitution. I doubt that other needles in the technology will give the precise balance, although they may actually sound perfectly good. One needle that certainly won't sound right is the D81 (which is excellent in the body that's made for it: the 881).

The original Sterohedron is a beautiful needle; the Stereohedron II is a further refinement, more of a "line contact" type (in buzz terminology). The SH II provides a tiny bit more tip life and tighter resolution. But honestly, I don't think that the resolution improvement will be audible to many people. The SH II is fussier about VTA alignment.

Since Stanton abandoned their best styli altogether, and abandoned these cartridges also, it might be nice to find an aftermarket manufacturer (not just a needle seller) who is capable of crafting the entire needle assembly to the origiinal standards. Any modern advanced tip shape should be suitable and will perform pretty much as well as the originals.

Regarding the pre-preamp, here's what I can tell you. It's a "head amp." You plug the cartridge into the head amp, and you plug the head amp into your preamp's normal magnetic inputs. Stanton/Pickering offered two head amps. The first was made in the American midwest. The second one was from Belgium and replaced the first one in the line. I bought the Belgian one, and I'm pleased with it. It consists of two independent channels, each of which is supplied by its own ordinary 9v battery.

I can't see any reason why it's neccessary to use a genuine Stanton/Pickering head amp with these cartridges. The head amps were probably just excellent existing "cottage industry" products that Stanton liked. These cartridges are very non-critical about loading (unlike regular magnetics), and you can undoubtedly run them into just about any head amp made for low-output moving coil cartridges, or even a transformer made for similar use. Or, you could simply plug them into moving coil inputs of preamps that have them. I have only used my own with my Stanton head amp, so I can't speak from experience about running these cartridges directly into other products. Also, unfortunately, when I worked closely with Stanton, I didn't have any discussions with them about these products. I was too busy grilling them about the Stereohedron tips which were very difficult for me to understand at the time.

[ludwignut]

Richard Writes:

I did pick up a three of the low-impedance elliptical styli while back. They look "shopworn," so I'd have to examine them to see if they show any wear. I'd be willing to part with one, as I'm already stocked (stoked) with these. I did listen to one of my .2 x .7s a while back in a low-impedance body, and it sounded fantastic. The appearance of these styli as well as my ability to purchase them all from the same seller is a puzzle. The guy who sold them to me bought them from the estate of a dentist, who also had many other needles.

What about those.I would be willing to give it a try.

Rob

[richard]

OK, Rob. I'll give them an inspection and come up with a price for you. Unfortunately, I'm not set up right now to test them, but I doubt that that'll be an issue. I've got to get a good look at the tips. If I see any wear, they're only for re-tipping; as they say in the auto parts business: "cores."

These ellipticals are, in fact, excellent-sounding needles according to what I heard when I listened to one in the low-impedance body. Very smooth and musical.

We can continue this by regular email. OK?

[richard]

Success!
I've examined the first of the low-impedance elliptical styli under the microscope. The tip looks perfect. I'll go on to the other two, perhaps tonight.

[ludwignut]

Wout Said:
Now this D88S might be interesting because there's still a source who claims to sell the original. I've send him an email to check.
Its Pickering equivalent is also available here, albeit a little expensive.
(albeit? Where did I pick up that word? I don't even know how to pronounce it  grin)


Have you done business with this guy?Is he legit? He doesn't take Pay Pal.

Rob

[richard]

Wout Said:
Now this D88S might be interesting because there's still a source who claims to sell the original. I've send him an email to check.
Its Pickering equivalent is also available here, albeit a little expensive.

Rob, note that the only substitutions that I recommend are the ones I've mentioned earlier. By my calculations, all Stanton/Pickering quad needles will work, but they won't provide the proper tonal balance. They were intended for a different body. We had a statement from Stanton via a member of our former Lenco board that indicated tonal differences between the Pickering 3000 and the low-impedance needles.

Again, to achieve joy with these low-impedance cartridges, needles that are known to be exact matches are the only exact matches. These are styli designated for low-impedance bodies. In Stanton, the D98 is used for both the low and high impedance 981 cartridges. In Pickering, I suspect that the D5000 will be OK, too. One of these days, I'm going to try it since I've got the needle on hand.

How much does the seller want for an authentic D88S? It should work.

[ludwignut]

Richard,
This seller lists the D3500 and the D4500 for the XLZ cartridge for sale.I want to know if anyone has done business with him.I would hate to send my money and get nothing in return.

Rob

[richard]

Richard,
This seller lists the D3500 and the D4500 for the XLZ cartridge for sale.I want to know if anyone has done business with him.I would hate to send my money and get nothing in return.

Those numbers didn't ring a bell for me, so I dragged out all my Stanton/Pickering literature and finally found the needles. They're obscure but legitimate, and they're for low-impedance use. These were the second and third Pickering styli for the body (7500 was the best). I think that these were test-marketed for a short time, perhaps a year. The same was done in the Stanton range. The 4500 is a first generation Stereohedron. The 3500 is a .2 x .7 mil elliptical and should be quite a nice needle, too.

[ludwignut]

Might be of interest while we are on the subject.

http://www.allmagnetics.com/smco.htm

Rob

[richard]

Yeah.

It's an interesting site. I learned a few things about different types of magnetic materials, especially about alnico, which has been used so much in audio. Thanks.

I understand that the application that put samarium cobalt magjnets on the audio map was for Sony's Walkman mini headphones. I doubt that Stanton was the only user of the substance for phono cartridges. What stood out for me about this material in particular (and some other materials on the site) was that it's hard to machine without damage, and that magnetization after assembly is recommended. If I read it right, the substance is not naturally magnetic, but magnetism must be induced, after which, it's "permanent."

---------------------------------------------
Hopefully, I'll be able to inspect the low-impedance #s 2 and 3 Stanton ellipticals tonight. I'm having better visual success with the Intel microscope now after having replaced its horrible bundled software with a simple freeware solution, and re-lubricating its dreadful toy stand. The firmware built into the microscope itself allows superior image control vs. the software that Intel provided, which doesn't even allow the use of controls built into their own microscope! I can access those controls via IrfanView. What a buncha stupid jerks.

[Wout]

Have you done business with this guy?Is he legit? He doesn't take Pay Pal.
Rob

Sorry Rob, don't know him. Never done business with him either.

[ludwignut]

Poking arround online and came across this  thread on the 881 and XSV and related material.


http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=28162&page=3


Rob

[brian]

Wow! Not just one but two ex-Stanton engineers contributing! Wonder if Richard knows them.

[richard]

No, Brian.

I didn't know "nfalbert"; I don't believe that I ever spoke with him. Ed Maidel is someone I've corresponded with a bit recently. Gene, and Brian, note: Mr. Maidel is not an engineer: he was the Pickering national sales manager for two stints with a long absence in between. I had no contact with him during the 80s. There are two possible reasons for this. The first is that this may have been during the period when he didn't work for Stanton. The second, and more likely, is that I dealt with Stanton, not Pickering. There was pretty much a wall between the sales departments of the two divisions, which were joined in engineering. The two brands were marketed via separate chains. They had different local/regional sales representatives, different product literature, different product designations, different dealer networks (although at times, a given dealer might sell both brands).I was in contact with two Stanton national sales managers, one of whom replaced the other. I visted with one at the factory. His replacement visited me.

Thanks for alerting us to this fascinating thread, Rob. I'm too worn out right now to dive into it. There's quite a bit to chew on: it's pretty dense. One thing that I found fascinating was the explanation of the subtle (to me, not so subtle) differences between styli and body characteristics in the S-C group. A number of years ago, I noticed these differences among specifications that audiophiles usually ignore and many cartridge makers never bothered to reveal. And these differences really jumped out at me when I interchanged between two stylus-body combinations, which were clearly improper (despite what a few needle sellers claim). This actually happened in reverse order for me: I tried the substitutions well before I noticed the discrepancies within the specifications. So, at a bare minimum, there are two distinctly different body types in the series, but I suspect that there are even more (even though their electrical characteristics don't give it away).

I'm going to give this topic a rest for a day or two, and then, I hope to return and re-read the entire thread and formulate a question or two of my own. Maidel has mentioned repeatedly the company's virtual paranoia about keeping a tight lid on their technology. So it's rather incredible that I was able to obtain whatever expertise that I have acquired despite this; I found that it could pay off for me to ask questions obliquely, rather than directly. So then, an engineer would answer my oblique question with an oblique reply. And then, I'd have to decipher that. And one day, one of the  engineers said, "Your knowledge of our products is extroardinary."

So, there were ironies compounded with ironies. Other companies bragged about their technology while obscuring basic information about thier products. Stanton kept their fine details almost totally secret, but was very transparent about the basics, and organized their products with admirable logic which was especially appealing to professional users. The requirement for technical secrecy had to be very frustrating to their own marketing and sales people, who were often restrained from direct boasting about what made their products unique.

One possible contributor to the secretiveness may have been the company's involvement with the military-related aerospace industry, which has long had a major presence on the same general area of Long Island. Stanton sensors and/or transducers were used aboard the Space Shuttles. It would be fascinating to know what aerospace technology wound up inside their cartridges. I've long suspected that aerospace metalurgy and structural designs found a place in their stylus assemblies. Stanton's needles just don't break like Audio-Technica's.