Stanton LZS and Pickering XLZ

[L70eric]

The Stanton 981 LZS with disco duty styli D89 SA and D89 RM (made for 890 cartridge)

I started to talk about that combination under a different subject (suitable cartridge for L70 arm).

I had today a fine and interesting listening session with these combinations.

The LP e=mc2 / Count Basie, the Lenco Studio Tonearm, MC-preamp Lukaschek, passive source switcher, triode 6B4G pp amp, Tannoy 8inch monitors, compared with a Benz Ruby II (has a tip - similar shape like Stereohedron or Shibata and is normally in use in that set. The tracking force 3.5 grams. Longhair brush not used. Use of destilled water in Lencoclean arm and disc stabilizer in the center.

The spherical SA (clear plastic armature) has a very compact, fresh and tight sound, loud peaks are clean and instruments and groups are good defined at high levels. Soundstage at average and high levels not surprising, but good and fine. Details at low levels are more or less missing, very little or no room/depth behind the orchestra.

The elliptical RM (white plastic armature) has a more detailed stereo image in average to high levels and plays better than the SA. Details and definition in low levels are also present, but not surprising. It would be a not bad solution if you have a worn D98S stylus and you can't get an original replacement.

I would not recommend this solution, if you are afraid to damage your 981 cartridge body or your records, because the two styli don't fit perfect to the cartridge like the D98S does. My D98S stylus lacks of missing cantilever-damping and the right time has not come yet to reconstruct the cantilever damping in the stylus tube.

Have fun

[GP49]

I wouldn't worry about damaging the cartridge if the "tube" on the new stylus doesn't fit excessively tightly into the cartridge body (as Richard said, an oversize tube may damage the cartridge's innards so it won't hold a PROPER stylus any more). 

And, if you can see the stylus/cantilever well enough to align it properly, a spot of modeling clay, Blu-Tack or similar should fix it into place and keep it there.

[richard]

This might be a good way to do it.
I once mentioned that I bought a Stanton 881S cartridge a long time ago. Its needle doesn't stay in place. I figured that the body was loose, so I got my hands on an extra body. The needle fell out of that one too.

One caution: whatever substance is used to fix the finger grip onto the cartridge body, it shouldn't have an offgassing solvent. Solvent fumes could change the characteristics of the tiny elasomers that control the compliance of the stylus.

Also, the substance should be placed so that it doesn't space the finger grip away from the body. That would change the magnetic relationships between the magnetic gummidges.

[GP49]

One caution: whatever substance is used to fix the finger grip onto the cartridge body, it shouldn't have an offgassing solvent. Solvent fumes could change the characteristics of the tiny elasomers that control the compliance of the stylus.

In that case, use modeling clay.  Blu-Tak can leave an oily stain on some materials which suggests a volatile petroleum in it.  Modeling clay (at least the stuff I get at Toys R Us) doesn't; and to be sold for child use, it would have to be non-toxic if eaten, which pretty much rules out most petroleum solvents.

To use it, I'd say moosh a little bit onto the sides after you've installed the stylus to the body.  Or if you have just finished a whole bottle of Chardonnay by yourself, schmoosh it on.  Better yet, wait until you're sober!

[richard]

Maybe Blue Tac is the thing to use. I don't recall it smelling. How about silly putty? Or maybe the modern clay you mentioned.

I gave up modeling clay more decades ago than I care to reveal. Back in the good old days, it was made with oil. I know because I used to hurl it from my crib at the walls of my room, leaving oil stains. My father had painted his own breed of distorted cartoon Disney characters on the walls. I aimed at them.

[brian]

What about a Scotch tape wrap? That would do the trick I would think.

[richard]

Brian said,

What about a Scotch tape wrap? That would do the trick I would think.

Naw, man. No heft. No satisfaction: Scotch Tape ain't no fun to throw at the wall.

[richard]

One of our members just asked me about this fascinating range of cartridges, so I read the long threads both here and on Audio Review. I was thinking about what kinds of practical solutions would be adequate for these products in Year 2010.

Here's what I'll say:

- Don't fall for any stylus interchange claims made by dealers (or even Stanton themselves) for this group of products. Most interchanges will not work properly.  They may be close, but not perfect. I've tried two substutions, myself, using genuine, new Stanton styli.  The results weren't close; they were unacceptable.

- Replacement needles offered from aftermarket manufacturers for the Pickering 3000 and the Stanton 881 may or may not be OK. If you have either of these bodies, it's worth considering. Note: these two cartridges are not identical.

- Aftermarket replacement needles claimed to work perfectly for any other Pickering XSV or Stanton 981 (or derivative models) will almost certainly be wrong. And you'll be out the money.

Therefore,

- The best foolproof solution is to take your used stylus and send it off to Expert Stylus for evaluation. If the existing tip is good, they'll tell you.

What is a "used" stylus? It's a needle that you have bought from someone else (regardless of their claims). Or a needle that you think you used for over 200 hours.

Expert's prices are reasonable, reputation very good. If they give you a "go," have them re-tip it with their recommended choice of diamond profile. This route will not only be the best-sounding, but also cost-effective, too. I have a very good stash of original styli for my Stanton low-impedance bodies. If I didn't, this is what I'd do myself.

[jloveys]

Thanks for your wise info, Richard ! You're THE expert !   

[MrRogers]

Is the D88s the same as the D98s? Is the D88s a perfect match for the 980LZS?

[GP49]

Is the D88s the same as the D98s? Is the D88s a perfect match for the 980LZS?

No.

Unlike Pickering/Stanton's earlier bodies that looked the same, these won't take "just any stylus that fits", contrary to what aftermarket stylus makers assume.  

The D88S is for the Stanton 880/881 body (EDIT: See correction from Richard Steinfeld, further down on this thread...the D88S does appear to be compatible to the 980/981 bodies).  The D98S is for the Stanton 980/981 body, both HZ and LZ versions.  There are internal differences among the samarium cobalt Pickering and Stanton bodies which make it necessary to use the correct, matching styli.  They'll fit and play the record without harm, and make sounds...but they won't be correct.  Use the 8-series styli with 8-series bodies, and the 9-series styli with 9-series bodies.

I've tried this kind of interchange among my Stanton 881S and 980HZS, and Pickering XSV3000 and XUV, using original styli for all of them.  There's something subtly amiss when the styli are swapped.  I wrote in an earlier thread that the "air" didn't seem right; that's about all I can really say about the differences.  The XUV was designed for CD-4 Quadriphonic so one might expect different coils in that one to better carry the very high frequencies; what reason there was for the others not being totally identical, I don't know; and those at Stanton who did, are long since retired.

[richard]

I think that Gene has said it all.

"I wrote in an earlier thread that the "air" didn't seem right; that's about all I can really say about the differences.  The XUV was designed for CD-4 Quadriphonic so one might expect different coils in that one to better carry the very high frequencies; what reason there was for the others not being totally identical, I don't know; and those at Stanton who did, are long since retired."

I've got the quad cartridge/stylus equivalents almost all figured out now, but the quad products pre-date the guide I've been writing and won't be in it. I know that one of the models has been, effectively, termed a "dog" by one of the Stanton people who was involved. As I recall, there were five CD-4 cartridges in both brands. Two or three of them were hefty trackers.

I've written here, earlier, that I'd tried a 981-881 swap in both directions: the sound was awful.
Bornilover: you didn't mention your situation. Do you already have one of the bodies and/or needles that you mentioned?

[MrRogers]

I have a 980LZS with a D98s, it was installed just today. I also have a 881s with a D88s. The 881s normally comes with a D81s so the D88s has puzzled me a little.

[GP49]

If memory serves, Stanton 881S came with the D81S (though mine is marked only "D81"); D88S was on the Stanton 881S Mk II.  

[richard]

Bronilover, please add your location to your profile and sign with your real name. Thanks.

Regarding your stylus, you have hit the jackpot! Your D88S is the needle for the 885LZS, the low-price version of your 981. Thus, you now have two Stereohedron needles for your low-impedance cartridge body. Where did you find these gems? Are they new? The D88S may, in fact, be the same thing as the D98S, only marked down for the appearance of a lesser implementation. The stated specs are lower, of course, but when they're that good, I'd be surprised if you hear the difference (if any).

Gene, I only seem to have the D81 IIS, and that's what's also in my database. An old catalog shows the former D81S (1st generation Stereohedron). D81 sticks in my mind, too, but I doubt that I've got one to look at.