Stanton LZS and Pickering XLZ

[GP49]

Richard, THANKS for the correction on the D88S, which I had found somewhere on the Web as being the stylus for the 881S Mk II.  I have added an EDIT to my prior post.

I have both a D81S and a D81E; for the Stanton 881S (Stereohedron, non Mk II) and for the Stanton 880E (Elliptical, the 880 is a non-calibrated 881 body).  Both are completely interchangeable among all 880/881 bodies.

[richard]

I just remembered a long-ago conversation with a Stanton engineer about the tracking force for the 881, stated as an absolute 1.25 grams. "Oh, that was an error. We just left it in. It should be .75-1.5 grams."

All these samarium cobalt cartridges are so good that there should be some way to keep all of them in circulation. And I think that there is. We know, of course, that there are no needles from Stanton, and probably never will be..

Pick 3000: aftermarket, maybe. Maybe not.
Stanton 880/881: aftermarket, maybe. Maybe not.

All models: get them re-tipped by Expert Stylus and Cartridge. I'd say that this is the preferred route.

In the aftermarket arena, needles for the 3000 and 880/881 exist. But is the vendor's needle for the 881 really for the 3000? Is his needle for the 3000 really (and totally) the needle for the 881 in a Pickering finger grip? The two are not interchangeable.

[GP49]

All these samarium cobalt cartridges are so good that there should be some way to keep all of them in circulation. And I think that there is...

All models: get them re-tipped by Expert Stylus and Cartridge. I'd say that this is the preferred route.

If someone bends a cantilever, what would Expert do?  Can they duplicate the original?  It does not take much difference in the mass of the cantilever and the compliance of the suspension to throw off the performance of a cartridge. 

What I'd do with my Stanton 980HZS, were I to bend its cantilever, I don't know.  At least with the 881, I have the elliptical stylus, to use or to have retipped.

[MrRogers]

I bought these two cartridges from here http://www.onceanalog.com.au/ . The owner Vince is a big fan of the 881s, he owned many over the years. He bought the 980LZS a long time ago but never got to use it. Why, it's low output wasn't compatible with his phono stage and the 881s was so good that he didn't bother. Twenty years later I come along, bought one of his turntables and his last two remaining Stanton's. I look forward to listening to the 980LZS over the coming weeks .

[richard]

Bronilover, name and location, please. This helps us to relate with you. It's also been our tradition.

Gene, I sent David Wong an 881 stylus with broken cantilever. I understand that Expert Stylus can work wonders with this sort of problem. When he gets to it, we'll learn how he made out.

In the samarium cobalt "series," Stanton slanted their former ruggedness/performance balance in the direction of performance. Thus, these cantilevers can't withstand the abuse that their forebears could handle. And this is true, too, of the upgraded styli for the 500/V15s. They're probably more rugged, still, than similarly-performing styli in other brands, but they can, indeed, be broken.

I think that what's critical in a go/no go re-tip decision is the condition of the elastomers. Stanton's elastomers tend to be pretty stable, although some chemicals will definitely attack them. I think that your point about cantilever mass is important, but also, that Expert is aware of this issue too, and that their cantilever repair will be close enough. There's bound to be some small difference, but my hunch is that it'll be inaudible.

[MrRogers]

I'm think of buying a D81s MKll stylus for a 881s Mkll cartridge. However the seller who has tried the stylus with his 881s MKl cartridge says  it "has some noise from the left channel" and added, "but only on the last track or two of an LP".

What could be causing this? A faulty cartridge or a faulty stylus (I'm hoping it's his cartridge) Is there a compatibility issue with using a MKll stylus with a MKl cartridge?

[nic]

only last track or two? alignment? if it's been like that for a while would the stylus/cantilever be damaged?

[richard]

Rogers wrote,

I'm think of buying a D81s MKll stylus for a 881s Mkll cartridge. However the seller who has tried the stylus with his 881s MKl cartridge says  it "has some noise from the left channel" and added, "but only on the last track or two of an LP".

What could be causing this? A faulty cartridge or a faulty stylus (I'm hoping it's his cartridge) Is there a compatibility issue with using a MKll stylus with a MKl cartridge?

No way. The body is the same. There's been a strange tradition in the industry of putting labels on cartridge bodies with the stylus number. Believe me, the body does not care which Stereohedron it is. By the way, I like both of them. The differences are very subtle.

Nic replied,

only last track or two? alignment? if it's been like that for a while would the stylus/cantilever be damaged?

I submit that the problem is with the seller's record, records, and/or alignment. The parabolic shape may be reaching into the groove and picking up groove damage at a level which hasn't been traced by a different stlus that he's used to. It's also possible that Nic's correct. However, in many cases, worn records have sounded surprisingly good because the Stereohedrons often will bridge across damaged groove areas. I can't see why other parabolic types won't do the same thing.

I doubt that the needle is audibly tracing a defective groove height: Stanton's regular styli were used to repair and, in effect, polish negative record images (cut originals, etc.), whereas they made two versions of a special twin-tip stylus to perform the same job with stampers and positive intermediates. Logically, they would not sell a stylus that would emphasize (or even trace)  a "raw" part of the groove. Their "Bi-Point" stylus is included in the original 1979 professional catalogs that I have for sale.

Some people have sort-of agreed with Rogers' friend Vince: they've liked the 881 so much that they've just decided to live with it as their "forever" cartridge. Of course, Walter Stanton didn't cooperate: he died. And the people who took over had no interest in keeping audiophles and classical musicians happy.

I don't want to come-on like Mr. Commercial here, but I offer original booklets of reviews fulled from the world  audio press (translated into English) for both of these cartridges. These are collectors' ephemera, so they aren't cheap. I've found these reports to be very interesting and they help me with my own orientation.

I want to stress that these are two distinctly different cartridges with distinctly different needles. Gene's stylus for his 980S cartridge won't interchange properly with the 881, and he's said so. There are three of us who have tried this sub and had the same observation. In my own case, I subbed the elliptical and not the Stereohedron version of the low-impedance needle. I am probably more sensitive and analytical than most other folks because of both my training, skill, and simply the way that I'm wired. So, I heard the same effects as  the other two people, just probably more intensely and distinctly. No matter: they described what they heard in their own words and we've all underscored each other: you just can't sub needles between cartridges made using these magnets.

Guys: I'd appreciate your making sure that your locations are included in your profiles so that we can easily see where you are, and please sign your post with a real name so that I don't feel that I'm talkng to phantoms. This helps me. Thanks!

[GP49]

I want to stress that these are two distinctly different cartridges with distinctly different needles. Gene's stylus for his 980S cartridge won't interchange properly with the 881, and he's said so. There are three of us who have tried this sub and had the same observation. In my own case, I subbed the elliptical and not the Stereohedron version of the low-impedance needle. I am probably more sensitive and analytical than most other folks because of both my training, skill, and simply the way that I'm wired. So, I heard the same effects as the other two people, just probably more intensely and distinctly. No matter: they described what they heard in their own words and we've all underscored each other: you just can't sub needles between cartridges made using these magnets.

According to Stanton specifications for the 980/981HZS and the 881S, the DC resistance and inductance of the coils differ between the two models. The difference will manifest itself in the extreme highs. So here's an example of the specs and the ears being in agreement.

[richard]

Exactly.

And considering the variety of these specs through the samarium-cobalt models in both brands, what I did for myself was to stonewall these cartridges into their "eaches." I had to bend my brain to this new way of thinking because it is the direct opposite of the Company's previous way of working, which was to introduce individual static bodies and then market an entire range of styli, each range for one body.

And I think of these separate, unique, samarium cobalt as being their own "groups" in the sense that not only is each one different, but that two or three cases, there actually were a group of styli. For example, for the 881, there were four versions: elliptical, Stereohedron, calibrated, un-calibrated.

I've come to think of the samarium cobalt models as being similar to the excellent products from the "cottage industry" cartridge makers around the world.

[GP49]

I've come to think of the samarium cobalt models as being similar to the excellent products from the "cottage industry" cartridge makers around the world.

That approach may have come from the origin of the samarium cobalt Pickering line as the CD-4 quadriphonic cartridge.  I don't think there were any Stanton CD-4s.  The Pickering XUV/4500 cartridge had to respond well beyond 50kHz and that was pushing the envelope in those days (still is now, actually).  By appropriately specifying the cartridge's coils to counter the mechanical rolloff of the stylus, and altering the manufacturer-specified resistive loading from 47KΩ to 100KΩ (considered "normal" for CD-4 cartridges in general , to help them a bit), they got it done but with somewhat of a rise in the (audible) high treble.  For stereo, all that wasn't necessary; the stylus and coils could be tailored to work together to a better result in the 20-20kHz range.

What it did mean, however, was that a Stanton 881 or Pickering XSV/3000 stylus in an XUV body would have a readily audible rising high end, well past the 20KHz area.  Thereafter, the engineers who did the work may have recognized an opportunity to individually tailor each newer cartridge model's body and stylus for optimum results.  

[MrRogers]

Could you say that the 980LZS and 881s the best two Stanton's ever made?

[richard]

Gene, Stanton did market CD4 pickups. I believe that my professional catalog from approximately 1978 shows three of them. I'd have to drag it out to verify this. Ot seems that the phenomenon didn't last long. I'm omitting these from my book because they pre-date 1979 and were orphaned relatively early..

Rogers wrote (Rogers: please give me your name; thanks.):

Could you say that the 980LZS and 881s the best two Stanton's ever made?

OK. Best for what?
Best in terms of overall stereo-only performance? I'd say it's the 980HZS and LZS. A former Pickering sales manager said it was the WOS (high impedance only). That's his opinion. The low-impedance bodies in both brands were sold with a choice of three needles: in addition to the flagships and their un-calibrated equals, there was one slightly lower Stereohedron as well as one elliptical. This makes seven different low-impedance product numbers. I suspect that any difference between the models with Stereohedrons wouldn't be audible except that there were two Stereohedron generations for these pickups.

There is no such thing as a single perfect cartridge for all records, and especially a single stylus. What's most important is what's the best cartridge for you and the music you want to listen to. What will be the most satisfying cartridge for you? What will match your tone arm? As a single pickup for playing both late stereo records and mono LPs (with the accessory stylus), this is not an optiumum pickup due to the compliance discrepancies between the two needles.

It's virtually impossible to obtain replacement styli for the low-impedance cartridges in both brands. So, in selecting a perfect cartridge for oneself, I like to think about practicality too.

[GP49]

Gene, Stanton did market CD4 pickups. I believe that my professional catalog from approximately 1978 shows three of them. I'd have to drag it out to verify this. Ot seems that the phenomenon didn't last long. I'm omitting these from my book because they pre-date 1979 and were orphaned relatively early..

Thanks.  They MUST have, as it would have cost nothing to make a Stanton equivalent.  I can't remember it, though.  Must have blinked as it came and went!   

(One would have been the Stanton 780DQ.  But I cheated...looked it up, just now!  And even though I've now got a number for it, I cannot remember anything else!)

[Wout]

I once saved a scan of the Stanton 780/4DQ discrete 4-channel cartridge:

Quadrahedral stylus
freq. response: 10-50.000 Hz
output: 3.3 mV ± 2dB (5.5 cm/s)
channel seperation: 35 dB
dc resistance: 675 Ohms
inductance: 290 mH
tracking force: 2 grams ± ½ gr.