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Author Topic: Sansui AU-717  (Read 3384 times)
AR
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« on: August 16, 2012, 05:27:35 AM »

HI all, able to shed some tips/advices for the above amp of mine tat has been wif me for quite a while?

I do understand tat the AU-717 was from the Sansui 07 series of amps, it was classified as the smaller bro to it counterpart AU-919.

All the while it has been working fine wif minor issue, the problem was from cold start to power on n i always had the habit of switching the speaker knob from selection speaker A to off wenever i tend to off the amp after some leisure listening n vice versa. Volume,Loudness,Subsonic n Tone will also be in off position if i happen to fiddle wif it but usually i hardly touch it. It is consider as a correct/proper procedure to switch off the amp or is there any other better alternative than this?

So my issue lies in wenever i on the amp, turn on to speaker A from off position, i always experience some hiss/shassy soft sound from my L/R ch speakers. So inorder to eliminate this disturbance, i switch back to off position on the speaker selection. Aft a preheat/warming of 10/15min or so, i switch back to speaker A n gosh the hiss/shassy sound is gone.

Recently i pick up the courage to replace the E caps thoughout the output drive n power section. Of cos i did a lot of reading from various site etc... AK, Cdkands or audio review b4 i attempt the task. Those nasty glue on the pcb tat causes corrosion to various parts has now been cleaned n remove by solvent thinner. All caps has been replaced wif Nichicon/Elna caps of same value/voltage(105 degree celcius) not consider audio grade type cos i was on a budget roll. I did best of wat i could n i do admit its power section is one of the hardest part to rectify. Aft the cap change, the hiss sound still persist duing the initial switching on of amp.

My personal background is basically i know nothing bout electronics, but i do know desoldering/soldering skills of parts n simple measurement of caps n voltage.

Any generous feedback wld be greatly welcome, lastly tks


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GP49
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 06:45:57 AM »

HI all, able to shed some tips/advices for the above amp of mine tat has been wif me for quite a while?

I do understand tat the AU-717 was from the Sansui 07 series of amps, it was classified as the smaller bro to it counterpart AU-919.

All the while it has been working fine wif minor issue, the problem was from cold start to power on n i always had the habit of switching the speaker knob from selection speaker A to off wenever i tend to off the amp after some leisure listening n vice versa. Volume,Loudness,Subsonic n Tone will also be in off position if i happen to fiddle wif it but usually i hardly touch it. It is consider as a correct/proper procedure to switch off the amp or is there any other better alternative than this?


It won't do any harm to switch out the loudspeakers that way.  Most people don't do it, and it should not be necessary.

So my issue lies in wenever i on the amp, turn on to speaker A from off position, i always experience some hiss/shassy soft sound from my L/R ch speakers. So in order to eliminate this disturbance, i switch back to off position on the speaker selection. Aft a preheat/warming of 10/15min or so, i switch back to speaker A n gosh the hiss/shassy sound is gone.


From a distance, without actually hearing the amplifier, it sounds like there is a part which is noisy until warmed up.  This usually is an active device such as a transistor or integrated circuit but can also be a poor connection, or a passive part such as a resistor that has become noisy, or a capacitor that is leaky. 

Is this noise in both channels, or in just one?   If a power supply fault were the cause, you would probably hear the noise in both channels.  If an amplifier fault, usually in only one.

Recently i pick up the courage to replace the E caps thoughout the output drive n power section. Of cos i did a lot of reading from various site etc... AK, Cdkands or audio review b4 i attempt the task. Those nasty glue on the pcb tat causes corrosion to various parts has now been cleaned n remove by solvent thinner. All caps has been replaced wif Nichicon/Elna caps of same value/voltage(105 degree celcius) not consider audio grade type cos i was on a budget roll. I did best of wat i could n i do admit its power section is one of the hardest part to rectify. Aft the cap change, the hiss sound still persist duing the initial switching on of amp.

My personal background is basically i know nothing bout electronics, but i do know desoldering/soldering skills of parts n simple measurement of caps n voltage.

Any generous feedback wld be greatly welcome, lastly tks


The yellow glue used by the Japanese to adhere parts to the circuit boards prior to wave soldering has turned out to be a real headache.  As you note, it
can corrode the copper traces on the boards.  It can also cause leakage between traces.  In some cases (the Hi-Fi audio board in a line of expensive Mitsubishi Hi-Fi Stereo VHS decks was one that was legendary), the problem got so bad, involving such sensitive circuitry, that the only cure was to purchase a new board.  Yes, it could cause the behavior you describe but other causes are more likely.

I'm thinking that some careful signal tracing and voltage measurements should be the next stage in troubleshooting your amplifier.  That would be getting beyond the basic skills you have learned thus far.  My instinct tells me that the first place I would be looking would be the differential input stage of the power amplifier, which in the AU-717 is a dual JFET.   It is followed by another differential amplifier, this one comprised of two bipolar transistors.  But that kind of noise could actually originate just about anywhere.   WARNING: poking around in this circuitry is not for the unskilled; one slip of a voltmeter, oscilloscope or signal tracer probe could blow up a channel. 

The service manual for the Sansui AU-517/AU-717 is available as a free download at Hi-Fi Engine.   Registration is required, and it's free.

http://www.hifiengine.com/library/sansui/au-717.shtml


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Gene
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 02:07:07 PM »

Tks Bro GP49

In fact both channel speaker has the hissing sound wen the amp has just power on, it shd be classified as an intermittent noise(in/out)

So the power supply section shd be the area to be look into as u mentioned, which is the initial check to rectify as i a noob on electronics?

Yes i did download the circuit diagram from hifiengine but could not find a clue as i dun really understand the circuit design

Any other alternatives to remedy or simpler measure i can look upon?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 02:19:29 PM by AR » Logged
GP49
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 03:54:34 PM »

I have to take back the suggestion that it's the power supply.  From the Sansui AU-517/AU-717 service manual, the amplifier is
dual-mono: other than the power cord, switch and passive AC suppressor capacitor, the power supplies for the two channels
are entirely separate.

So, another question for you:  There should be a delay of several seconds from turn-on to actual audio being heard in the
speakers.  You should hear a click of a relay after those several seconds, and a click of the relay instantly when you
power down the amplifier.  Does your amplifier behave this way?  Or do the loudspeakers connect instantly at turn-on, so
you hear noises...and do they stay connected at power-down?

If functioning properly there is a relay that interrupts the feed to the loudspeakers during that several seconds at turn-on to
permit the amplifier circuitry to stabilize (the circuitry often makes extraneous noises as it comes up to operating voltage). 
The relay and the circuit that drives it also serves to detect malfunction due to an amplifier failure that could put speaker-damaging
DC on the output line.  It disconnects the loudspeakers instantly if this is detected, and also disconnects the loudspeakers instantly
when you turn off the power so you don't hear extraneous noises as the voltages in the amplifier circuitry bleed down.

If not functioning properly:  the circuit board that controls this is shown on Page 8 of the Sansui AU-517/AU-717 service manual
as "F-2663."  The description of the circuit's operation is on Page 10 (it shows the board as "F-2675" which is the version in the AU-517). 
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Gene
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 09:46:49 AM »

Output drive board - F-2721 left/2722 right

Power supply board - F-2663

Yup u r right in a way
The relay click in n Led glow stable red as powering up the toggle switch for bout 8seconds
The relays click off instantly wen power down the switch as well

As i measure using a DMM, the readings shows

DC offset Left ch(-3.7mV) Right ch(-3.8mV)
Bias current Left ch(30.5mV) Right ch(30.4mV)

The above reading has been fine tuned already, of cos there tend to be some drift of mV here n there. Anyway i just taking their average reading.
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wer
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 10:03:46 AM »

It was not my intention to offend. Sorry  embarrassed
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 03:24:21 PM by wer » Logged

Werner (wer - just my initials, not a nick!)
No esoteric audio equipment (except for my wife)
GP49
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »

Output drive board - F-2721 left/2722 right

Power supply board - F-2663

Yup u r right in a way
The relay click in n Led glow stable red as powering up the toggle switch for bout 8seconds
The relays click off instantly wen power down the switch as well

As i measure using a DMM, the readings shows

DC offset Left ch(-3.7mV) Right ch(-3.8mV)
Bias current Left ch(30.5mV) Right ch(30.4mV)

The above reading has been fine tuned already, of cos there tend to be some drift of mV here n there. Anyway i just taking their average reading.



Good idle current and DC offset.  Amplifier circuitry working as designed, then.   

But you say there is sound during the first eight seconds, when the relay should be open?  Also after you shut off,
when the relay should be open instantly?

The time delay operation of the relay should be enough to mute out "normal" warmup and shutdown
noises. 
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Gene
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 04:19:01 PM »

It was not my intention to offend. Sorry  embarrassed
No worries pal, cheers

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AR
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 04:36:31 PM »


Good idle current and DC offset.  Amplifier circuitry working as designed, then.   

But you say there is sound during the first eight seconds, when the relay should be open?  Also after you shut off,
when the relay should be open instantly?

The time delay operation of the relay should be enough to mute out "normal" warmup and shutdown
noises. 

A little misunderstood IMO

The relay clicks wif Led glow solid red after an 8 second delay, it jus happens tat those hissy soft tone appear on L/R speaker wen the speaker selection A knob was turn on after

Jus an update tat the readings tend to swing a bit
DC offset Left(-04.8mV) Right(-02.0mV)
Bias Left(31.8mV) Right(30.5mV)

Tks for clairfying

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GP49
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 11:55:58 PM »

Okay.  I'd say a noisy resistor or transistor but I'm still surprised it's in both channels, in an
amplifier that is dual-mono.
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Gene
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 04:45:05 AM »

Okay.  I'd say a noisy resistor or transistor but I'm still surprised it's in both channels, in an
amplifier that is dual-mono.

Any chance do i nd to change out the 4 main big cap(15000uf/63wv) since i already does for the driver/power board?

Parts changed
F-2721/2722(output driver)
470uf/63v, 33uf/25v, 1uf/50v(E cap)
473k/100v, 334k/100v, 182j/100v(Mylar cap)

F-2663(Power supply)
470uf/16v, 470uf/10v, 220uf/63v, 220uf/6.3v, 100uf/63v, 100uf/35v, 47uf/50v, 33uf/50v, 4.7uf/50v, 0.47uf/50v(E cap)
473k/50v, 334k/100v, 273k/50v(Mylar cap)


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GP49
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 06:56:39 AM »

The 15,000µF smoothing capacitors are individual to each channel; two of them are for the left channel and
two for the right channel.  A noise caused by a fault in one should not affect both channels.

In fact, as noted earlier: everything beginning with the power transformers is separate for each channel (dual-mono),
except for the output relay driver and protection circuitry on F-2663.

Have you tried to isolate the power amplifier from the line-tone amplifier?  Do you still hear the noise if you move the
back panel PRE-POWER AMP switch to DISCONNECTED?
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Gene
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »

Tks for the highlight, i do jus tat n keep u update
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AR
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 11:23:25 AM »

Tks for the highlight, i do jus tat n keep u update

Ok well i hav tested under the separated switch of both direct coupled n capacitor coupled n the hiss sound still present under the initial powering up of amp under speaker selector A.

Out of curiousity, under the separate switch of both direct/capacitor testing, i cld still use my amp as an integrated system n they still sings though my spk.
Doesnt the separate switch divide the pre/power separately?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:47:05 AM by AR » Logged
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